I have been outspoken at times in the past among my blog ring of friends in claiming that it’s not enough to argue the validity of mainstream science, or to incessantly drone, “Science and faith need not conflict

,” no matter how true those claims may be. The fact is that they do not persuade most evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. The problem is not with science vs. faith as categories, but between their perceived contradictory claims.

That seeking to identify the natural processes that explain the “origin of the species” is not inherently atheistic or inimical to the idea of a deity is obvious on its face. For one thing, the theory of evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life; that separate field of inquiry is called abiogenesis (life from non-life). Accepting evolutionary theory by no means whatsoever entails belief in non-miraculous abiogenesis or vice versa.1 Although I personally disagree, it would not be at all inconsistent to argue that God miraculously and instantaneously created the universe, then sculpted the first cell by hand, and finally endued it with life and yet accept the scientific account of evolution, specifically that there is no evidence that God specially designed or interfered with the natural processes of evolution that played upon that first cell (no matter how it became alive) and eventually brought about humans. In short, when we emphatically insist that there is nothing even slightly “atheistic” about evolution, we are not just putting lipstick on a pig. It’s slanderous nonsense to bind the idea of descent with modification (evolution) to an “atheistic, materialistic worldview“. Who would associate the attempt to discover natural causes for universal gravitation or the weather system with any particular worldview?

But as I intimated above, I long ago recognized that this isn’t enough for most devout Christians devoted to the Bible and inherited doctrine. It is why I haven’t made it a point to recommend to Undeception readers very good books like Francis Collins’s The Language of God and why I prefaced a full exposition of my views on science with a long series on bibliology and hermeneutics: the problem starts and stops with the Bible. Nonetheless, until a recent conflagration among my local friends, I must say that I lost sight of this obvious fact. In that argument, it would not have mattered how many undeniable implications of common descent I demonstrated from comparative anatomy, the fossil record, or DNA (as it turns out, I’m not very good at arguing science anyway). It didn’t even matter when I clearly demonstrated inconsistencies in their interpretation of Scripture using their own hermeneutics. They explicitly told me that their minds were made up: their presupposition is 100% concord between science and their interpretation of Scripture. No view calling into question either strict inerrancy or their historiographic reading of Genesis (usually because a challenge on the latter is a challenge on the former) may be entertained for even a second, no matter how well supported by Christians who have looked into the scientific evidence; I was, in fact, told that those Christians must be either compromising the truth they know or deluding themselves.

So in the end, I finished the (at times heated) discussion newly convicted that my original diagnosis of the failure of science to penetrate mainstream American Christianity was correct. At least my friends were being honest about their root concern, which was their bibliology, despite the fact that they, as all creationists do, tried to bolster their theological presupposition with alternative “science”, courtesy of ICR and AIG.

In the same way that the conviction that the ground outside is wet follows from the belief that it has just rained, any doubts about mainstream science that their pursuits in creationist folk science have birthed in them are secondary to a theological presupposition and not vice versa. The single catalyst motivating the conservative Christian community to seek, develop, and defend a novel alternative science is how it assumes the Bible is to be interpreted. If Genesis 1-3 weren’t in the Bible and if Adam were not mentioned elsewhere, everyone knows that there would be no Christian counter-science movement as there is today.

This leads me to make the following exasperated plea to creationists and other ID advocates: be aware that your problem with mainstream science is not, as many think, fundamentally philosophical or scientific but theological. In reality, anti-evolutionists are unlikely to utilize either philosophical or scientific evidence for any purpose other than to lend credibility to their predetermined interpretations and theological constructs.

Face it: the only reason Christians try to detect God’s miraculous signature in biology rather than in the developmental process of the fetus (cf. Ps 139.13) or the source of rain (cf. Gen 7.11, 8.2), both of which are directly attributed to things other than natural processes in the Bible, is because of their interpretation of the Bible. All Christians (I do hope) recognize both scriptures I just cited as non-scientific descriptions of reality because we allow literary-generic principles and cultural context to influence our interpretation.

But the same is unfortunately not allowed to work for the creation stories in fundamentalist and evangelical circles. Those who interpret the stories as infallible history and especially those unwilling to reevaluate the majority’s interpretation of Pauline theology must naturally remain at odds with the scientific consensus, but even they usually realize it’s no good saying, “Your science is wrong because my holy book says so” without presenting an alternative model that appears to scientifically account for observable facts. And so they go on the hunt, creationists trying to debunk, modify, or replace existing scientific understanding, ID advocates exploiting any as yet underdeveloped part of evolutionary theory and insisting the entire system is a house of cards rather than what it is: surprisingly robust and still very much under development. Can anyone honestly tell me that this theologically motivated revisionism is science?

It is often objected, why would we reinterpret or call into question centuries of Christian dogma based on an ever changing, human-devised scientific consensus led by atheists? I frame it in very different terms: we’re asking why they are not consistent in calling into question human-devised interpretations of Scripture by using the observation and reason with which God endowed our species, tools they themselves already use to interpret so many passages of Scripture whose actual “plain meaning” would contradict observable facts. For instance, how can they conclude that expressions such as the sun “rising”, “setting”, or standing still (Josh 10.12-14) in Scripture are simply phenomenological and not scientific expressions if they were not already using scientific observation to determine the earth’s motion in relation to the sun? Biology, astronomy, and geology are in essence no different than less systematic forms of human observation; rather, indeed, science is merely a form of human observation consciously systematized to minimize prejudice and critically examine presuppositions. Observing the natural world and applying that empirically perceived knowledge in our interpretation of Scripture is the same exact principle that helps us to decide that since people haven’t been observed to sprout from one another and attach themselves to things using tendrils, then Jesus’ claim to be “the vine” cannot be construed as science.2

But I’m (re)learning my lesson: what is the use of arguing with special creationists who have chosen to remain insulated from criticism of their theology unless we have another prepackaged, gift-wrapped theological construct that will maintain their cherished doctrines wholly intact? A modified bibliology and hermeneutic set is the only chance these people have of jumping across the divide, but if they do not have a new, more-or-less fully formed theological system to latch onto, the tendency has been either to fall into atheism or to never jump and instead abjure the other side. Few are willing to leap and be caught by those already standing on the other side, gradually and humbly building a theology that makes sense of all observed facts. As far as I’m aware, there is no fully formed, ready-made theological system that handles all questions raised by evolution, and that is a major reason there are so few Christians who accept evolutionary theory and a Bible not absolutely concordant with science or history.

The other, more fundamental reason is that an admission of the Bible’s lack of concord with facts of science/history is considered to cast aspersion on the Bible’s authority to speak on spiritual matters. Until we find a way of addressing those concerns satisfactorily or someone somehow contrives an exegesis that doesn’t call the Bible’s complete concord with mainstream science into question but allows Christians to use science, our view stands no chance among the inerrantists.

———————————————————————————————–

I realize this post might sound aggressive, cynical, and maybe even a little bitter, and for that I apologize. I have scoured it several times, looking for a way to qualify my blanket statements to make them more accurate, and frankly, I’m at a loss for a way to do so. I’ll appreciate your suggestions for mitigating my generalizations.

———————————————————————————————–

1 The last time I heard evolution described as an explanation for “the origin of life”, I shook my head, sighed, and corrected the person under my breath, muttering to myself, “It explains the diversity of life, not the origin.” Now, I have indeed heard such a statement as mine expressed before, but this time it struck me as an inadequate distinction. In actuality the diversity of life is fully explicable in terms of special (miraculous) creation; God just made different things in different ways. Rather, it’s the similarity of life that common descent explains so much better. The creationist will be tempted to throw out the old line, “Well, if God created everything, you would expect similarities (anatomical, genetic, etc.) between them, because God wouldn’t need to reinvent the wheel. Common Designer, common design.” But this simply doesn’t work when you go further inside the data. As Gordon Glover points out, the existence of nested hierarchies – shared, not differing characteristics – only makes sense under a common descent model. For a fuller explanation of this claim, see video number 12 from Gordon Glover’s “Science and Christian Education video series (also embedded below). [back to post above]

[zdvideo width="480" height="360"]http://www.beyondthefirmament.com/Lesson_12.flv[/zdvideo]

2 Please don’t get distracted by this one analogy of mine: sure, there are other things that go into interpreting Jesus’ metaphor as metaphor, but it is certainly true that if the line between people and vines were not as clear as it is that we would certainly have something else to factor into our interpretation of John 15. My point: human observation is an indispensable tool for biblical hermeneutics, and it’s not invalidated when it’s the particular type of human observation called science (cf. the issues of “sunrise” or the heart as organ of thought, both ancient misunderstandings corrected by fairly modern science). [back to post above]

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  • I wish I read this post earlier but I've been busy. Science and faith shouldn't conflict but unfortunately for many they do. I get annoyed with the ones that have a conflict with evolution becasue it's just a theory. Sometimes it gets extremely frustrating which to me it shouldn't be frustrating because I once was a creationist. I thought I would have a better understanding of why some stay creationists.

    <abbr>Angel´s last blog post..Simple question</abbr>
  • Damian, brief, yet concise. :)

    I am familiar with Steve's writings on Genesis as myth. As I said before it is not a new concept to me...just a difficult one.

    "firmament": I'm not sure what you mean by "the sense used in Genesis 1:6-7." What sense do you mean? If you mean a "canopy" which supposedly provided precipitation as I have heard YECs describe, then I would say I'm more than a little skeptical of such an interpretation.

    Gen. 1:6-7 sounds like Moses attempting describe the sky.

    <abbr>Josh H.´s last blog post..J.R.R. Tolkien: Lord of the Rings Poetry</abbr>
  • Sorry, I was unclear.

    I'm not well acquainted with YEC descriptions, but I know my ANE fairly well, and the basic concept behind the firmament in Genesis is that there were waters (mentioned in 6-7) above and below the world. The firmament separated the waters from the earth. As you say, there is an explanation for precipitation there, as well. This idea was pretty much universal in the Ancient Near East.

    The ANE concept of 'firmament' isn't really compatible with our modern cosmology; whilst you can say that it sounds like Moses attempting to describe the sky, that's being anachronistic - what it is is the author describing the nature of things as understood in the ANE.

    You don't understand things in that same way - so you have two main choices: You can imagine that the author, in his inspiration, described the world in a way that would be interpreted correctly only 2000 years in the future; or you can imagine that the author described the world in the way that he imagined it to be.

    But my point was that regardless of your choice - choosing between the historical/scientific accuracy of Genesis or its role as myth - Paul's theology is valid. In fact, I'd argue that neither choice changes Paul's theology (or any other aspects of the NT that I'm aware of) in any major way.

    Given differences that are between Genesis and modern cosmology, don't effect the way we interpret the NT to a great extent, I just don't feel that NT theology is a reason to discount Genesis as myth.

    I hope I'm not out of line :).
  • Thanks, Vance.

    I have also toyed with the Genesis-as-myth position. But the fact that Paul and Jesus among others reference Genesis events and they use them as the basis for theology, if not historical fact, and this makes the myth proposition a bit hairier.

    I heard a recent podcast from R.C. Sproul in which he discussed literary styles within scripture and how to identify historical narrative. One of the things he used as criterion is the mention of specific places and people (which happens in Genesis 1-11) and geneological listings (e.g. the table of nations). However surely these things can be found in ancient stories that we know are myth (e.g. writings of Homer, Greek mythology).

    I hate feeling so uncertain and flip-floppy on these important issues (b/c I'm not like that on most things) but I completely see the problems with a hardline fundamentalist, inerrant view of scripture. There are some things that just don't add up. I realize that.

    Thanks for the engaging discussion everybody. Sorry, if I hijacked the conversation.

    <abbr>Josh H.´s last blog post..J.R.R. Tolkien: Lord of the Rings Poetry</abbr>
  • Josh,

    Steve's written some very good stuff here on Genesis-as-myth; they might be worth checking out (the 'Ancient Near East' category on the right). That's something you can only figure out if you take evidence from both sides and weight it up yourself. Books like JOhn Walton's Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament are also good for understanding the genre and role of Genesis in the OT.

    There's not much written out there (possibly because the audience is not yet large enough) reinterpreting Paul (who uses most of the Adam/Christ language) in the light of a Genesis-myth. But I'm not sure it's necessary: I doubt that you believe in a 'firmament' in the sense used in Genesis 1:6-7, yet the fact that Paul beleived in this 'fact' does not mean his theology was flawed. It means Paul was misinformed - Adam, regadless of whether or not he was a man named Adam, was the first man who sinned.

    Most NT issues are resolved by looking at things like this; in fact, I cannot think of any that cannot be simply and honestly sound, despite a mythic genesis.

    I know that's a bit brief, but I hope it was helpful.

    Damian

    <abbr>Damian´s last blog post..Marriage: God’s intent and my culture</abbr>
  • Hi Josh,
    Concerning your question on interpreting scripture once at least some parts of Genesis are interpreted as not being historical : "but can you see how someone like me would begin questioning those things?" My response, is of course! That's where I'm at, and I think Steve's original post that started this comment string also references this problem. Unlike the flat earth, and earth-centered solar system problematic verses the Genesis creation story is strongly cross linked with other parts of the Bible, not just referencing the story, but also integrating it into topics of original sin, the relationship between female and male, foreshadowing of Christ, etc.

    My working hypothesis is to view Genesis 1-11 as inspired myths--stories that explore many important topics in a way that was comprehensible to people 3 thousand years ago, and yet still profoundly interesting and insightful today. This doesn't address many of the issues you bring up, but at least from a literary style standpoint the story of Abraham feels to me much more like a historical narrative than the chapters before.

    -- Vance

    <abbr>VanceH-´s last blog post..What if Adam had not eaten?</abbr>
  • As always loved the post.

    On a side note...did you see are read the article on "Darwin Got it Wrong"?

    Of course not in the creationist sense, although I can see them now using it to their benefit. It discussed how the "tree of life" Darwin envisioned is not a perfect model of the origins of life. Not only were genes descended vertically (as in the tree of life; parent to offspring) but horizontally (!) such as in a virus to bacteria or even a multi-cellular organism.

    Keep up the good work...love your insights.
  • @Vance: That does it! I'm subscribing to your blog right now. That really helped me understand some things. Very well put.

    You're right. I do not believe because God showed up in the physical universe and conked me on the head one day. It's a spiritual thing that I somehow figured out, inside. I guess "faith" is a good word for it. ;)

    As science makes significant progress explaining [biology] we have no choice but to examine why we believe and how we interpret scripture.


    That is my concern. Maybe I'm to black-or-white with the issue and my approach to the validity of scripture but if I decide that Genesis is a story that some people in the past made in order to explain creation b/c they had not the understanding to envision what really happened, then my next thought is "what else was made up?" I know that may seem silly but I can't help it.

    Was Elijah's encounter on Mt. Carmel just a story? Was Jonah just a story? What about Saul's visit to the sorceress at Endor? What about the miracles of Jesus? Was it slight of hand that the fisherman disciples just weren't smart enough to figure out? What about the resurrection? Maybe all of Paul's doings were myth written by some overzealous followers of his.

    I am not saying any one here doubts these things (esp. the ones about Jesus), but can you see how someone like me would begin questioning those things?

    Looking back on what I've just written it sounds like I need to make "my calling and election sure!"

    <abbr>Josh H.´s last blog post..Who Influences You?</abbr>
  • Hi Josh,

    I do believe that God is responsible for all there is, that He spoke the universe into existence, and that He is not limited in any way.

    Regarding, "..why have God at all you can explain biogenesis and existence without Him?" I think this is equivalent to asking, why should I believe in God if He doesn't manifest Himself clearly and unambiguously in the physical universe. I doubt you believe primarily because God explains stuff, however I think a lot of people do desperately want evidence they can use to prove God's existence. Frankly it often feels to me like people are asking for signs before they will believe.

    Regarding an entity or process to "create life and nature" if God is not miraculously involved with the creation process. It is tempting to assign agency to things we don't understand. The ancients ascribed agency to whatever was keeping the moon and sun from falling out of the sky, because nothing in their experience or understanding could explain it.

    Clearly there are a lot of things in biology that don't have good explanations right now, but I don't think that lack of understanding means we need to invent God like things (e.g., "force or mind") to explain them. Some bacteria develop drug resistance over time, but that micro-evolution doesn't seem to me to require a God like entity or process to explain it if God doesn't miraculously provide a mutation.

    Your comments/questions have convinced me that I don't like the term "theistic evolution". Your questions illustrate some of the confusing aspects of combining those two words. We don't have "theistic general relativity", or "theistic quantum mechanics." It's not like those theories don't have problems too, but their problems (e.g. Dark matter, matter/anti-matter asymmetry) are well outside the realm of our personal experiences.

    I think evolution has been particularly tough on the Christian community because biology is the last remaining big personally observable thing that has been traditionally explained as God's miraculous creation. As science makes significant progress explaining this we have no choice but to examine why we believe and how we interpret scripture.

    -- Vance

    <abbr>VanceH-´s last blog post..What if Adam had not eaten?</abbr>
  • Full Disclosure: I do not have a strong opinion for or against theistic evolution or creationism. For some reason (and this is probably wrong) it doesn't matter that much to me. I leave that to guys like Steve. ;). I prefer to argue for God at the philosophical level (e.g right and wrong, natural law, Mere Christianity kinda stuff). Just so you know where I'm coming from.

    Here's my problem. I tend to think about this issue the way Mr. Spock fights. Capt. Kirk would do flips and punches and drop kicks. Spock pinched his opponent's neck--game, set, match. If you do not need to throw a punch then why waste the effort? "It would be most illogical, Captain."

    Applied to the topic at hand, why have God at all if you can explain biogenesis and existence without Him? Perhaps that's a mindset I need to ditch?

    Vance, you said:

    I think with regards to theistic evolution we should take God out of the equation entirely. I don’t see any theological value in having God being the tinkerer that nudges life from one stage to the next–only to have science show how it might of happened naturally. I believe that God acts in the physical universe, but I tend to view it more in the sense of special revelation; God acting in peoples lives, rather than explaining the workings of the universe.


    I hope this isn't a stupid question that goes without saying: do you mean that perhaps God had nothing to do with creation or do you mean that creation is a part of His workings that He has chosen not to reveal to us?

    If it is the former: In my mind, it seems that if God were out of the universe-creating equation and limited only to "acting in people's lives" then the entity or process which created everything is potentially on par with God if not superior to Him, for in that case the entity or process would have done something God could not or did not do, namely create life and nature.

    Furthermore the question ultimately comes to mind "did God intend for the entity or process to create life and nature?" If so then it was by an act of His will and therefore He IS part of the equation. If not, then that means there is some force or mind that can act of its own accord apart from the will of God.

    If it is the latter: maybe. But how do we know? Maybe He has been trying to tell us. Maybe Genesis isn't just a nice story. Just sayin'. Food for thought.

    <abbr>Josh H.´s last blog post..Who Influences You?</abbr>
  • Applied to the topic at hand, why have God at all if you can explain biogenesis and existence without Him?

    For existence itself, I tend to believe it does make the most sense to posit an Uncaused Cause (the argument from contingency). But with the origin of life, we can't say that natural explanations make God's existence trivial or else all our natural explanations for anything render Him unnecessary. This is the fallacy of the mindset that uses God-of-the-gaps for explanations.

    Furthermore the question ultimately comes to mind “did God intend for the entity or process to create life and nature?” If so then it was by an act of His will and therefore He IS part of the equation. If not, then that means there is some force or mind that can act of its own accord apart from the will of God.


    That's it exactly. God's role in creation is His intentionality. Or perhaps, in your language, one could say that in the same way that Steve Jobs is responsible for the iPod (he is the reason Apple created iPods, although not the proximate reason your particular device exists), God created the universe. ;)
  • Hey! Thanks for giving a nod to my inner geek, Steve!

    <abbr>Josh H.´s last blog post..Who Influences You?</abbr>
  • Hi Josh,
    God-in-the-Gaps, at least the way Bonhoeffer described it is the tendency to ascribe the things that man can't explain to God. The problem with this approach is that as man learns more (e.g., why there are eclipses, how did bacteria get rotating flagelums), then God becomes an ever retreating figure. Bonhoeffer argues that instead of continuing to assign God to the ever diminishing unexplained, we should focus on what really matters, that as believers He is at the center of our lives.

    I think we would love to to see proof of God in the physical realm. For me at least that was one of the attractions of intelligent design, but we are called to walk by faith, not by sight. I think with regards to theistic evolution we should take God out of the equation entirely. I don't see any theological value in having God being the tinkerer that nudges life from one stage to the next--only to have science show how it might of happened naturally. I believe that God acts in the physical universe, but I tend to view it more in the sense of special revelation; God acting in peoples lives, rather than explaining the workings of the universe.

    We see God in what has been made, but I don't think we are viewing the machinery, instead I think we are seeing glimpses of His Spirit.

    -- Vance

    <abbr>VanceH-´s last blog post..What if Adam had not eaten?</abbr>
  • More often than not I am a reader only and not a commenter. But I have a couple of questions (if these sound antagonistic I do not mean for them to).

    1) I've heard "god-of-the-gaps" theory dissed on here a lot. My understanding is that it is the simple explanation of "God did it." Does not theistic evolution have to rely on god-of-the-gaps to some extent in order to avoid taking God out of the equation altogether (which is what atheistic evolutionists think they have been able to do)?

    2) Now I know there are plenty of quacky YECs out there (Dr. Dino is chief among them). But what about honest-to-goodness scientists like Hugh Ross (astronomer) and Fuz Rana (biochemist) who are OECs and believe that they have found scientifically-based alternatives to both YEC and evolution. Are they simply out of touch as well? Is it not at all possible that they are at all correct?

    <abbr>Josh H.´s last blog post..Who Influences You?</abbr>
  • norm
    Josh,

    I think you are going to find a wide range of explanations for some of your questions. But I will start off by prefacing that I see the past 1900 years of Christianity as having muddied the original theological waters drastically on both the origins and end times of scripture. That discussion alone would take a book and I have one to recommend that would be a good start in evaluating these points. Here is the link for the book released last year and it’s called “Beyond Creation Science”.

    http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/

    The authors are Old Earth adherents and give some introductory perspectives on the YEC and OEC position and actually discuss Hugh Ross and the weakness in his methodology. I once was enamored with Hugh Ross and actually am indebted to him for getting me farther along on understanding these issues but I eventually realized that Ross was trying to make theology and the scriptures fit into a physical world that just doesn’t match up.

    I also want to emphasize and I will not beat around the bush but I consider myself a “creationist” albeit one who professes that God “created” the Universe fully formed and gifted to provide what we actually see and can discern from a scientific evaluation called evolution. I believe that evolution is completely sufficient as it is from God without the need of God having to step in on occasion to specially create things (the God of the Gaps). If God can create miraculously He also is capable of creating fully through evolution. The problem with the miraculous creation though is that it eventually starts to become explainable through more knowledge as time goes on and as information continues to pour in then some who bank on the miraculous may have their faith shaken if they are not well founded.

    Part of the problem theologically though is that once one gets a handle on the purpose and intent of the Hebrew OT writers it may start to become apparent that their Genesis 1 Creation story was not necessarily a detailed story about the physical creation but instead is more of an introductory prologue that lays out the upcoming ages into six segments called Days. This has been attested to somewhat by modern writers such as Meredith Kline and Henri Blocher and more fully by the ancients such as Augustine from the 4th century and Barnabas from the 1st. What this implies is that the scriptures are primarily related to the story of the origins of Israel and their Covenant beginnings with God via Adam and is not a story as supposed about the creation of the first human being. There is a lot behind this determination so I’m simply making folks aware that the Hebrew writers were writing about something different than we have supposed. A lot of this lost meaning is because it is difficult for a Hellenized student to naturally get their mind around Hebrew theological implications without putting oneself into the mind of the Hebrew authors. In other words one must become proficient in Hebrew Priestly knowledge, a daunting task to say the least. This of course is not everyone’s calling and shouldn’t be.

    I will agree with you that the origins debate isn’t the most important biblical discussion as we all realize that revolves around Christ and our walking with the Spirit. But laying that aside I do believe there are ramifications for our culture and civilization if we as a society continue to appropriate a collective negative attitude towards science because we think it undermines our faith. Especially when it doesn’t have to.

    Blessings

    Norm
  • But laying that aside I do believe there are ramifications for our culture and civilization if we as a society continue to appropriate a collective negative attitude towards science because we think it undermines our faith. Especially when it doesn’t have to.


    Norm, that's it exactly. Like it or not, these counter-science, alternative science, or folk science movements (whatever you want to call them) cannot help but breed and foster a distrust of scientific inquiry (it's all a conspiracy!) among bystanders. Thanks for weighing in.
  • Josh, you might have missed this post, in which I address question 1) full-on. "Theistic evolution" critiques special creationist views as "God-of-the-gaps" because they tend to explain any gap in knowledge with "Goddidit"; thus Intelligent Design leaders maintained that "Bacterial flagella are not explainable; therefore, 'Designer' did it," a pronouncement which was dramatically premature. We who accept natural methods of creation as the best explanation affirm instead, "God is responsible for it all, not just what we don't have explanations for." But as He does in so many other areas, such as the scabs forming over flesh wounds, photosynthesis, and water boiling, He is responsible in a way that doesn't require miraculous intervention. The idea is not that we believe God "guided" evolution along, but that He purposed in His divine counsel to use naturalistic evolution to bring us about (which, if true, should make anti-evolutionists tame down some of their rhetoric about how inane and awful evolution is).

    Actually, this critique of yours is much better directed toward key intelligent design advocates such as Michael Behe and Philip Johnson who accept common descent (all animals including humans share common ancestors) but still try to find a smoking gun hidden somewhere down in the code.

    As for 2), let me first say that the day I assume an astronomer's theologically motivated biological countertheory to be on the right track is the day I trust an astronomer to do open-heart surgery. Heck, it was, in part at least, Ross's area of expertise that helped lead him to accept an old universe. Similarly, it is their own areas of expertise that have influenced thousands of biologists, geneticists, paleontologists, etc. to accept common descent. As for Fuz Rana, who meets the criteria in the above post by allowing his theology to drive his science, I don't believe he's correct; I, as a non-scientist, tend to listen to most other Christian biochemists who have accepted common descent despite their theological qualms.

    If you really want to know more about Rana and Ross encourage you to check out these critiques from Steve Matheson (Dr. Matheson is a Reformed believer and a developmental cell biologist at Calvin College in Michigan).

    Think like Spock. The crew of the Enterprise is trying to get back to a Starfleet outpost in order to receive an award. Then something screwy happens: the ship starts acting up. Bones and Kirk say that they should just slow down; Scotty, who wants to get back as badly as anyone, insists that maintenance needs to be performed on one of the reactors immediately. Who would Spock listen to?

    Person A believes one thing about something in his field of specialty even though it is problematic for him in other ways; Person B who is not an expert in that field disagrees and maintains a position that just happens to cohere perfectly with his own belief on another issue that he thinks is more important. If Spock weren't an expert in that field either and he were going to assess probability, which one do you think he'd listen to?
  • Tom
    As far as I’m aware, there is no fully formed, ready-made theological system that handles all questions raised by evolution, and that is a major reason there are so few Christians who accept evolutionary theory and a Bible not absolutely concordant with science or history.

    The only alternative you have is to show them an alternative.

    Regarding the terms abiogenesis or evolution, both do have theological implications. The mechanism God used to create life (abiogenesis) speaks to his character, power, and intent. For example, if God spoke creatures into existence (which he could do) vs letting a billion year old stew percolate some molecules into a dance (which he could also do), then the theology needs to reflect why one route was chosen over the other. And while evolution is not abiogenesis, evolution was the mechanism for bringing about creatures in God's image. There was a point in evolutionary history where there were proto-humans, incapable of having a soul, and then humans with a soul. When was it? How was that transition made, exactly, since other animals are capable of thought, communication, and emotion? While I agree with you that there is nothing intrinsically atheistic about evolution, I agree with what I presume is your friends' stance that there is no theology that can coexist with it.

    Again, your best argument is the clear presentation of your theology, which you persist in presenting here on your blog. You gotta keep doing it.
  • Good questions, Tom. I agree that the thought does seem odd that God would queue everything up so that He could miraculously, instantaneously flip the switch and create the universe and the earth within it and when it's time, *SHEBANG!!!* -- there's an amoeba. Now wait for a couple billion years...

    It makes infinitely more sense (whatever good that is) that if He were going to wait on evolution anyway, that God would have a "billion year old stew percolate some molecules into a dance". In other words, it's not by logic inconsistent to believe that God created the world as it is today using inconsistent creative methods, but it is suspect, which is why I believe abiogenesis to have been a naturalistic process.

    And while I agree that your questions do beg for answers, I don't agree that one might conclude from that fact that "no theology can coexist with it." Does this not sound very much like, "Science hasn't answered it; it's a tough question; so science cannot answer it"? With theology even more than science, while there should be a drive to discern and factor in all the facts knowable, the inability to resolve all unknowns does not constitute a cogent negative argument.

    Besides that, I have come to a somewhat comfortable place with that particular discussion. Maybe I'll write about it sometime. ;)
  • It also makes more sense if we give up a dualistic view of man. Rather than be composed of a material body and a material soul, why not view all of the qualities formerly associated with the "soul" as emergent properties of neurobiological complexity? To say there must be a soul is to say that God can not organize matter in such a way, no matter how hard he tries, to create free agency. Dualism is must more "god of the gaps" thinking!
  • AMW
    If I read John Walton correctly (and if he has is facts straight), this is a pretty Hebrew way of thinking of the spirit. Dualism is more of a Greek construct.
  • I think you're reading Walton correctly, but it's by no means unique to him. I've always heard that the dualism is a Greek and not a native Hebraic view.
  • Gordon,
    Once again, you reinforce the similarity of our thinking. I have long suspected just this; this hunch I had been playing around with in my head for years was recently strengthened when I visited the link you provided to a presentation of Nancy Murphy's "non-reductive physicalism".
  • Dan
    Good post Steve. I was recently in dialogue with a fundamentalist who doesn't really care much about the scientific arguments for/against evolution. What matters is the bible and he can't get his head around the idea that the bible doesn't necessarily speak in factual terms about everything it presents unless explicitly referenced as a parable. Modern scholarship and evolutionary science are seen as almost demonic, so I've decided to amiably end my conversation with him. He sees the world through a different set of lenses than you or I, a very cultic set of lenses. When one's view is unfalsifiable there's simply no point in arguing.
  • Doug
    Steve,

    The trouble is, those scientists who are just doing pure science are not included in this discussion about theology and evolution, any more than theologians doing pure theology are not arguing about evolution and how it might intersect with science. That's why I "generalized" about "the scientists", because "they" are the ones making the most noise. Likewise, the "creationists" you are discussing are really just a branch of christianity, and ought not be treated as representatives of christianity. I think its safe to generalize about scientists, simply because when I do, I am defacto talking about those scientists who believe they have a mandate to leave pure science and meddle in the realm of theology.
    Those who fancy themselves as being qualified to do this are only self-proclaiming themselves as authorities on the subject. They are no more authorities in matters of faith than theologians are authorities in matters of science.
    We live in a complicated world, and because it is so complicated, the age of the renaissance man who could know all there was to know about both theology and science has passed. So I think this discussion is moot. It is not possible to speak with absolute authority about either science or theology and discern the mind of God with complete precision. That is why I can generalize about both groups - they are both wrong, even while they can both also have elements of truth. In fact I think many times just because there ARE elements of truth in each argument, it just distracts from the real issues.
  • Doug Moody
    Steve,

    First, let me include my comment and then yours, then I want to comment about what you said:

    "I think the scientists are being as intellectually lazy as you accuse the creationists of being. They often will use outmoded arguments of this or that evangelical as being representative of ALl christians. Then, they go on a rant about why they don’t believe “the bible”. Well, aren’t they doing the same thing as the creationists who refuse to go to the source?

    Doug, you are doing something so dangerous, but so common among fundamentalists: conflating the group “the scientists” and the group “atheists”. Tell me that Francis Collins or Kenneth Miller go on a rant “why they don’t believe the Bible”.

    First of all, I don' tthink you read my comment carefully enough, or maybe you don't recognize that you are doing the same thing. Namely, you named a group "The Creationists" and then your article talked generalities about "them" But when I did it by calling them "the scientists", you tell me that I am doing something that "the fundamentalists" do.

    I wasn't conflating any group, I was simply using the same type of logic youn used when you were arguing about creationists. I certainly know the difference between a christian scientist, a pseudo scientist, or a practicioner of the black arts. They are all separate groups. As a matter of fact, each PERSON is entitled to be addressed on the merits of his or her own arguments and not to be tarred and feathered with the sins of "the group" whatever group it may be.

    Perhaps that is the problem with a discussion of this sort - because people are people, and each one is different. Your views about ANY thing are going to be different than mine, no matter how much we may agree on most things. That is why I would always rather discuss the merits of any argument solely on the basis of itself, without dragging in some group as a de-facto representative of a view. "Official" views of anything are not worth the paper they are printed on. It always boils down to meeting people mano a mano and then getting to an agreeable enugh state where the ARGUMENT ITSELF can be discussed, not the personalities behind them.
  • Doug, take a look at what you said about "the scientists":
    they go on a rant about why they don’t believe “the bible”.

    Now that you mention it, I can see how you might be accusing Christian scientists of doing this, but I didn't originally suspect that you would accuse Christians such as Collins of "rant[ing]" and not believing the Bible.

    As for generalizing over groups, you're missing the point. By definition, a creationist is someone who takes a somewhat literalist view (to differing degrees, naturally) of the Bible's account of creation more seriously than they do mainstream science -- how is that an unfair generalization? It's by no means out of bounds to make observations about the type of people I clearly defined. "Creationists" are "creationists" because of what they believe about "creation"; I doubt this should be controversial. But I could be wrong.

    My central contention is that coming up with alternative science to back up a predetermined theology is a characteristic of people who are unlikely to believe actual science and allow it to influence their theology. Whether you call them "creationists" or "individuals who believe that way", my point is the same.
  • Norm
    Steve,

    Good article and one I agree with. It’s going to be lonely out there for those of us who embrace evolution and scripture without trying to tie them together. I think we just need to remember though that just like the days of the printing press there followed an explosion of knowledge and it permeated believers over time. With the advent of the internet I believe we will continue to see an increase of knowledge but it will take possibly generations for old paradigms to start dissipating.

    Norm
  • Norm,

    Thanks for your comment; I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad for your measured optimism (optimistic realism?), much along the same lines as Cliff's post, wouldn't you say?
  • Steve/Jared,

    Short version: I don't hold to inerrancy. Off the top of my head, I regard it as man's communication of God's revelation to a given people in a given context. But I don't think the 'spirit' is my support structure, lacking inerrancy. I think the correct support for a bible that lacks inerrancy is good use of the resources God has provided: THe world around us, records of history and tradition, and above all a sense of reason.

    Jared, I'd like to point out that much of the time 'acceptance' of evolution in Evangelicalism is as much lack of thought. They got taught it in school, and never thought to disregard it. I believe the people Steve is frustrated by are those who think about it and consider the conclusion important. In these people, an inerrant bible can cause science/theology problems.

    And I throw a 'yea' in the direction of Vance's comment, too, Steve. Great :).
  • Off the top of my head, I regard it as man’s communication of God’s revelation to a given people in a given context
    ...
    I think the correct support for a bible that lacks inerrancy is good use of the resources God has provided: the world around us, records of history and tradition, and above all a sense of reason.

    Damian, thanks for this simple exposition of your view. I could have written what you wrote to the letter.
  • I was going to comment here, but decided instead to post my comments at OutsideTheBox .
  • Thanks, Cliff. A very good post on your part. Love the cartoon: classic!
  • Hi Steve,
    I totally agree with your analysis on this. As science fills in the gaps pointed out by the special creationists their response is an ever tightening circling of the wagons rather than a progressing dialog.
    What would the attributes of a new theological framework that is apparently needed? For me I think it would need to affirm the inspiration of scripture without requiring a totalizing systematic solution to every problem (not that any theology does that now anyway...) Perhaps the scriptures should be viewed as primarily providing a unique, God given perspective to each of us, rather than source material for assembling doctrines and creeds. Of course that it not controllable, but is the most important function of theology to enable us to confidently assert that someone else is wrong?

    -- Vance

    <abbr>VanceH-´s last blog post..What if Adam had not eaten?</abbr>
  • Excellent comment, Vance. There's nothing for me to add or detract from here. As someone who has always argued for the necessity of good doctrine, I have nevertheless been compelled to see that Biblical theology is far less systematic, complex, and intricate than what I might have hoped. It is a tricky balance respecting the faith of believers who have gone before (tradition), being humble enough to acknowledge contributions from the community of believers now present, and avoiding the urge to blindly follow either group all the way. But a recognition of humanity's fallibility and finite understanding -- including my own -- is the only way to be truly humble in our theology.

    Of course that it not controllable, but is the most important function of theology to enable us to confidently assert that someone else is wrong?

    And this is the quote of the day.
  • Doug Moody
    Steve,
    I feel your pain brother, I really do. Yet, I want to point something out to you that I t hink you missed entirely. Namely, that "Science" is also guilty of the same crimes you are accusing the theologians of.
    How often have you read something written by atheistic or agnostic scientists that mischaracterize theology and/or the bible as the reason they are rejecting biblical arguments?
    I think the scientists are being as intellectually lazy as you accuse the creationists of being. They often will use outmoded arguments of this or that evangelical as being representative of ALl christians. Then, they go on a rant about why they don't believe "the bible". Well, aren't they doing the same thing as the creationists who refuse to go to the source? The scientists interpretive methods are not, as you stated;
    "science is merely a form of human observation consciously systematized to minimize prejudice and critically examine presuppositions."
    Wouldn't it be great if that were true. Instead, a scientists will get his underwear in a knot about some silly theologian's comment and then will build his own house of cards arguing against a supposed monolithic christian worldview.
    Another, newer wildcard, is the rise of Islamic Creationism. This is based on the same problematic approach to their scriptures, except, (in my opinion) they are "interpreting" a faulty scripture to begin with. This will only further alienate "men of faith" and "men of science", and never the twain shall meet.
    I think you are fighting an uphill battle. Embrace evolution as your own, but never let it become a stand-in for your faith. God Himself said "without faith it is impossible to please God" For the theologian who sticks to his (admittedly ignorant) story, know that God would far rather have that happen than to try to explain God through purely mechanistic means. It can't be done, and I think, it can't be done BY DESIGN! That is, God wills that we approach Him not through observable phenomena, but instead out of a pure heart that displaces what we can see by what we can feel. Yes, there is a place for reason, but reason is not how we apprehend God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    What He has created is only a testament to Him - it is not Him. Coming to Him has to be done personally, Su Corazon a mi corazon! When that is done, then God reveals Himself through the miracles of the works of His hand. All we can ever hope for if we neglect the heart of religion is the mechanistic legalism that has been tried and failed in the old testament. But we have come to a livelier stone, and it is THAT city where we find our true hope. Science properly interpreted is really just icing on the cake.
  • Everyone, this is Doug -- my favorite dissenter. :)

    How often have you read something written by atheistic or agnostic scientists that mischaracterize theology and/or the bible as the reason they are rejecting biblical arguments?

    I am of the firm opinion that we Christians need to get our own house in order before cleaning up the neighbor's. Of course there are critics of Christianity that are loudmouths and use science to launch their missives, and I have made it clear that I think they're misusing science to do so; but neither should Christians throw out logic because there are atheistic philosophers who use principles of logic to try to disprove Christianity.

    I think the scientists are being as intellectually lazy as you accuse the creationists of being. They often will use outmoded arguments of this or that evangelical as being representative of ALl christians. Then, they go on a rant about why they don’t believe “the bible”. Well, aren’t they doing the same thing as the creationists who refuse to go to the source?

    Doug, you are doing something so dangerous, but so common among fundamentalists: conflating the group "the scientists" and the group "atheists". Tell me that Francis Collins or Kenneth Miller go on a rant "why they don't believe the Bible".

    Embrace evolution as your own, but never let it become a stand-in for your faith. God Himself said “without faith it is impossible to please God” For the theologian who sticks to his (admittedly ignorant) story, know that God would far rather have that happen than to try to explain God through purely mechanistic means. It can’t be done, and I think, it can’t be done BY DESIGN! That is, God wills that we approach Him not through observable phenomena, but instead out of a pure heart that displaces what we can see by what we can feel. Yes, there is a place for reason, but reason is not how we apprehend God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    In other words, we hear God's message, and this creates opportunity for faith. I don't think we can explain God through purely mechanistic means, but we can very often explain His actions through mechanistic means. We do so all the time: does God "flip a switch" at 32ºF and make things freeze? Are we "explaining God" to say that a natural law He wrote is responsible for the freezing point? I am merely saying that evolutionary processes are in no way different. We should not neglect to give Him the credit for those natural processes, but this is a far cry from denouncing the very notion of evolution as bizarre fantasy and pernicious evil.

    What He has created is only a testament to Him - it is not Him. Coming to Him has to be done personally, Su Corazon a mi corazon! When that is done, then God reveals Himself through the miracles of the works of His hand. All we can ever hope for if we neglect the heart of religion is the mechanistic legalism that has been tried and failed in the old testament. But we have come to a livelier stone, and it is THAT city where we find our true hope. Science properly interpreted is really just icing on the cake.

    No arguments here, Doug. :)
  • Jared
    The problem is Evangelicals' vulgar attachment to_sola scriptura_ and rejection of more mystical and traditional sources for theological reflection.

    I occasionally find more openness among those with Pentecostal and Charismatic backgrounds, because they feel themselves to have other assurances. If inerrancy crumbles, they've still got the Spirit. Also, because there can be made loose analogies between the work of the Spirit in sanctifying and perfecting the believer and the Spirit's role in the evolution of the species, I find a more receptive audience here. Though, I think the ground must be fertilized a bit with the realization on the part of the Pentecostal that she already reads scripture very differently from other Evangelicals.
  • Jared, thanks for weighing in. I think perhaps you may be on to something. I will say that as an overall trend I have not found charismatics and Pentecostals to be any less fundamentalist on this subject than other groups: the argument mentioned in the above post took place between me and two guys, one of whom was a cessationist, the other a dyed-in-the-wool charismatic outraged by my denial of inerrancy. That said, I don't doubt that you may have had such experiences with the "Spirit-filled" sort, because I can point to a few myself.

    For instance, Damian (the above commenter) is a charismatic Christian intensely interested in the orthodox expressions of faith and traditional sources (seemingly a rare combination, sadly). He also accepts evolution, although I can't speak for his specific stance on "inerrancy" per se.

    Denis Lamoureux, a Canadian charismatic Christian, is one of the ablest defenders of evolution as science and of post-inerrancy theology. His book Evolutionary Creation jibes more with my view of the Bible than almost anything else I've encountered.

    I have often defended my own faith in God despite a lack of an inerrant Bible on the grounds of a relationship and some sort of experiential faith; and although I haven't had a charismatic experience since college, I don't doubt that the intensely personal faith of my charismatic background has kept me grounded. I believe the same thing goes for you, doesn't it?
  • Jared
    I wouldn't argue that Pentecostals and Charismatics are on the whole any more receptive, only that they have better resources to help them make the leap. There are Christians who find themselves susceptible to argument, empirical evidence, the weight of scientific opinion, etc., and so on these grounds are prepared to entertain the possibility of evolution. It is a small group, indeed. But once you've got this group, you'll find that certain of its constituents feel compelled to choose either Christianity or evolution. (And analogously, and perhaps relatedley, either inerrancy or no faith at all.

    Certain other members of this group will find a middle way which they believe to harmonize their faith with what reason tells them. I would argue a priori that Pentecostals and Charismatics are more inclined to join this second group, because they have other assurances which keep them going while busy rearranging their doctrinal furniture. (And I would argue a posteriori that there are, indeed, many individual Pentecostals and Charismatics who would report this to be the case.) The same is true of Christians from the magisterial traditions. When the opinion of "The Church" is regarded as authoritative, one can rest easy because the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury have checked things out and decided that evolution doesn't present any problems. And so they go on, practicing their faith without concern for the questions that so exercise those of us raised to chant sola scriptura.
  • Jared
    It also occurs to me that there are cultural forces at work here as well. In Toronto we found that most Evangelicals we knew had little problem with evolution. Within the faculty of Stacey's Christian school (an ACSI school) there was much open discussion of the topic , with opinion split about 50-50. We never met any hint of the shock and outrage I have more than once discovered upon broaching the subject down here. Perhaps some of this is owed to the diversity of opinion in the city, in which creationism only holds the favor of a very small minority. As you well know, one is likely to explore more carefully what one is committing to before identifying with a small, much maligned minority.
  • AMW, "confirmation bias" is exactly the expression I was looking for. Thanks!
  • AMW
    Steve's reference to the Chicago Statement jogged my memory. From Section III. C., paragraph 6:

    Apparent inconsistencies should not be ignored. Solution of them, where this can be convincingly achieved, will encourage our faith, and where for the present no convincing solution is at hand we shall significantly honor God by trusting His assurance that His Word is true, despite these appearances, and by maintaining our confidence that one day they will be seen to have been illusions.

    From Wikipedia:

    ...confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and to avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs.

    The statement has a cognitive bias built right into its language, for all to see!

    Amazing. And while we're on the subject, what signatory of the Chicago Statement would entertain for one second such a generous disposition to the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, or any writings other than the Bible said to have divine inspiration?
  • Thanks for the clarification, and I agree that it seems "the Spirit" would be a nice glue to hold things together. I think even Evangelicalism is more devoted to "relationship" with God than Fundamentalists, and fortunately have proved a little less bound up by a blind sola scriptura, or solo/nuda scriptura credo. But then you've got the Chicago statement...oh brother...

    And yes, I thought of the difference you have perceived between Toronto and William Jennings Bryan country. Speaking to people all over the U.S. on this blog, from Virginia to Oregon, I'd say our country in general is Williams Jennings Bryan country. Damian, as useful contrast, is Australian.
  • Steve,

    I think we all get a little frustrated sometimes with either having to bite our tongues or explain ourselves fruitlessly. However, I often think reading your posts - if you cannot make an impression, nobody can. You're often an inspiration for me to keep trying, though. Your main point here is 100%: It's theology that is the issue here, not science. But unfortunately, I don't see many 'fundamental' Christians making the distinction or caring about it.

    <abbr>Damian´s last blog post..God is the ground of rationality, the giver of reason</abbr>
  • Thanks, Damian. I try to be irenic, I really do. But when creationists just ignore what we have to say and our (legitimate, I think) challenges to their position, I do tend to get a little frustrated, I admit. :D
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