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	<title>Comments on: Weird worship</title>
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	<description>By faith, Abraham...</description>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://undeception.com/weird-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-14629</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/05/17/weird-worship/#comment-14629</guid>
		<description>Steven, thanks for the comments - I loved all three of your examples! And I agree that many of the more modern hymns are laughable in their musical content (some are outright groanable). We shouldn&#039;t have to choose between high musical quality and high lyrical quality, doggoneit.

Thanks also for the encouragement. I hope you stick around and interact on some of those other &quot;interesting studies&quot;. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven, thanks for the comments &#8211; I loved all three of your examples! And I agree that many of the more modern hymns are laughable in their musical content (some are outright groanable). We shouldn&#8217;t have to choose between high musical quality and high lyrical quality, doggoneit.</p>
<p>Thanks also for the encouragement. I hope you stick around and interact on some of those other &#8220;interesting studies&#8221;. <img src='http://undeception.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://undeception.com/weird-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-14520</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/05/17/weird-worship/#comment-14520</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve got a few offerings for the strange lyric pile:

1. &quot;Getting Used to the Family of God&quot; is made up of syrupy lines aplenty. But how about this one in the chorus: &quot;Learning to love you, how easy it is.&quot; I don&#039;t find it easy learning to love everyone in the church, which is what the song seems to be about. Maybe it&#039;s just me...

2. &quot;Let the Lower Lights Be Burning&quot; is one I can&#039;t bring myself to lead. Consider the words in the refrain: &quot;Let the lower lights be burning, send a gleam across the wave! Some poor fainting struggling seaman you may rescue, you may save.&quot;

3. I think I&#039;m leaning more toward picking on certain lines than entire hymns, but here goes again... &quot;Let Me Live Close to Thee&quot; contains this: &quot;In Thy field I would wield sickles brave and true.&quot; How can a sickle be brave and true?

There are more but I don&#039;t want to over-do it. I&#039;m pretty critical of some of our hymns but keep it in my own thoughts mostly, so as not to discourage folks who are encouraged by them somehow. The music in some of them is worth ridicule. One in particular has a verse whose music sets up for the refrain in such a way that I expect the chorus of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer will be forthcoming.

Keep up the interesting studies and sharing them with careful thoughtfulness. I&#039;m still considering and testing what you&#039;re presenting in other posts. Thanks for the work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got a few offerings for the strange lyric pile:</p>
<p>1. &#8220;Getting Used to the Family of God&#8221; is made up of syrupy lines aplenty. But how about this one in the chorus: &#8220;Learning to love you, how easy it is.&#8221; I don&#8217;t find it easy learning to love everyone in the church, which is what the song seems to be about. Maybe it&#8217;s just me&#8230;</p>
<p>2. &#8220;Let the Lower Lights Be Burning&#8221; is one I can&#8217;t bring myself to lead. Consider the words in the refrain: &#8220;Let the lower lights be burning, send a gleam across the wave! Some poor fainting struggling seaman you may rescue, you may save.&#8221;</p>
<p>3. I think I&#8217;m leaning more toward picking on certain lines than entire hymns, but here goes again&#8230; &#8220;Let Me Live Close to Thee&#8221; contains this: &#8220;In Thy field I would wield sickles brave and true.&#8221; How can a sickle be brave and true?</p>
<p>There are more but I don&#8217;t want to over-do it. I&#8217;m pretty critical of some of our hymns but keep it in my own thoughts mostly, so as not to discourage folks who are encouraged by them somehow. The music in some of them is worth ridicule. One in particular has a verse whose music sets up for the refrain in such a way that I expect the chorus of Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer will be forthcoming.</p>
<p>Keep up the interesting studies and sharing them with careful thoughtfulness. I&#8217;m still considering and testing what you&#8217;re presenting in other posts. Thanks for the work.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://undeception.com/weird-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 03:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/05/17/weird-worship/#comment-991</guid>
		<description>Hi Laura,

I understand where you&#039;re coming from.  But think for a minute here: the writers of Scripture are absolutely unanimous in affirming that we are not to be content with offering God anything less than our very best.  As David said, &quot;I will not offer to the Lord that which costs me nothing.&quot;  The modern worship movement notwithstanding, I cannot find a scriptural exception clause for lyrics in worship.  What kind of &quot;sacrifice&quot; of praise is it when we simply emote to music?  Is worship not about more than our streams of emotion flowing before God?  Does/would it mean every bit as much for your husband/boyfriend to simply sign the Hallmark Valentine&#039;s Day card he gives you, &quot;I love you,&quot; as it would if he were to take the time to write out &lt;em&gt;why&lt;/em&gt; it is that he loves you?  To craft it into poetry?  To craft it into &lt;em&gt;fine&lt;/em&gt; poetry?  Or better yet, what woman is as happy with an anniversary gift of a Hallmark card as she is with precious jewelry?  Does neither suggest more affection, devotion, or a commitment to please than the other?

I think we have every right and the responsibility to demand more from ourselves - &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; from one another - in worship as in every area of the Christian life.  It&#039;s the &quot;iron sharpens iron&quot; principle.  I must disagree with your contention that &quot;good enough&quot; is simply good enough.

&lt;blockquote&gt;And as for your comment on the sexual nature of the first song, obviously God created sex, and I believe its intimate nature is just a fraction, a glimpse of the true intimacy we are meant to have with Him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Following your line of thought, worship music : a relationship with God :: sex : marriage.  Now, I don&#039;t know if you&#039;re married or not, but let me tell you: intimacy in marriage is much, much more than sex.  This leaves the worship movement either 1) claiming that recreational sex is a (or &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt;) central aspect of the marriage relationship or 2) dramatically overemphasizing the importance of musical worship.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Furthermore, sex itself is a gift from Him that, when not abused, glorifies Him. Understanding the emotional depth of romantic intimacy helps me, in my finite understanding, grasp the reality of His intimacy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
So picturing yourself and God writhing in bed makes for a worship experience for you?  Uh huh.  Of course, I&#039;m not a woman.  But I sincerely beg your pardon: I think it&#039;s &lt;em&gt;weird&lt;/em&gt;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I believe that Song of Songs is an incredible allegory of His great love for His Bride and the individual components of it :).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I don&#039;t.  That we can make the application of marriage relationships with the marriage of the Bride and the Lamb (or with any other marriage) is doubtless, but to say that the Song of Solomon was written as an allegory...&lt;a href=&quot;http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/07/15/herman-who/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;well, I just don&#039;t buy it,&lt;/a&gt; Laura. :)

&lt;blockquote&gt;But even outside of that interpretation, there is nothing wrong with delighting in His gifts.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Hey, no argument there ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Laura,</p>
<p>I understand where you&#8217;re coming from.  But think for a minute here: the writers of Scripture are absolutely unanimous in affirming that we are not to be content with offering God anything less than our very best.  As David said, &#8220;I will not offer to the Lord that which costs me nothing.&#8221;  The modern worship movement notwithstanding, I cannot find a scriptural exception clause for lyrics in worship.  What kind of &#8220;sacrifice&#8221; of praise is it when we simply emote to music?  Is worship not about more than our streams of emotion flowing before God?  Does/would it mean every bit as much for your husband/boyfriend to simply sign the Hallmark Valentine&#8217;s Day card he gives you, &#8220;I love you,&#8221; as it would if he were to take the time to write out <em>why</em> it is that he loves you?  To craft it into poetry?  To craft it into <em>fine</em> poetry?  Or better yet, what woman is as happy with an anniversary gift of a Hallmark card as she is with precious jewelry?  Does neither suggest more affection, devotion, or a commitment to please than the other?</p>
<p>I think we have every right and the responsibility to demand more from ourselves &#8211; <em>and</em> from one another &#8211; in worship as in every area of the Christian life.  It&#8217;s the &#8220;iron sharpens iron&#8221; principle.  I must disagree with your contention that &#8220;good enough&#8221; is simply good enough.</p>
<blockquote><p>And as for your comment on the sexual nature of the first song, obviously God created sex, and I believe its intimate nature is just a fraction, a glimpse of the true intimacy we are meant to have with Him.</p></blockquote>
<p>Following your line of thought, worship music : a relationship with God :: sex : marriage.  Now, I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re married or not, but let me tell you: intimacy in marriage is much, much more than sex.  This leaves the worship movement either 1) claiming that recreational sex is a (or <em>the</em>) central aspect of the marriage relationship or 2) dramatically overemphasizing the importance of musical worship.</p>
<blockquote><p>Furthermore, sex itself is a gift from Him that, when not abused, glorifies Him. Understanding the emotional depth of romantic intimacy helps me, in my finite understanding, grasp the reality of His intimacy.</p></blockquote>
<p>So picturing yourself and God writhing in bed makes for a worship experience for you?  Uh huh.  Of course, I&#8217;m not a woman.  But I sincerely beg your pardon: I think it&#8217;s <em>weird</em>.</p>
<blockquote><p>I believe that Song of Songs is an incredible allegory of His great love for His Bride and the individual components of it <img src='http://undeception.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t.  That we can make the application of marriage relationships with the marriage of the Bride and the Lamb (or with any other marriage) is doubtless, but to say that the Song of Solomon was written as an allegory&#8230;<a href="http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/07/15/herman-who/" rel="nofollow">well, I just don&#8217;t buy it,</a> Laura. <img src='http://undeception.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<blockquote><p>But even outside of that interpretation, there is nothing wrong with delighting in His gifts.</p></blockquote>
<p>Hey, no argument there <img src='http://undeception.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://undeception.com/weird-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/05/17/weird-worship/#comment-989</guid>
		<description>Of your blog, this is the first post I have ever read, so I honestly have no idea what you personally believe in concerning to the Lord or anything of that nature :). However, considering that you&#039;re taking the time to write about worship songs, I&#039;m dangerously assuming that you at least have particpated in worship services?

Regardless, if you know my awesome God, if you even have the slightest concept of His identity (not to insinuate that you&#039;re unintelligent, I struggle with grasping in the slightest fraction of His infinite self.), you&#039;ll know how pointless our worship is anyway. We are so inconsequential compared to Him, so utterly worthless without His love to give us value. 

To Him, our finest singing voices, our most intellectual lyrics are still not even close to glorifying Him as much as He deserves. It makes no difference whether or not the lyrics are &#039;weird&#039; or not to Him; He simply delights in the fact that His children&#039;s hearts are seeking to worship. I believe it is the heart behind the words, and that the lyrics just help us express that. And if He doesn&#039;t care what the lyrics are, so long as they do not blaspheme Him (and no adoring heart ever could), then why in the world would I bother myself with criticising and dwelling on someone else&#039;s worship that glorifies the Living God just as much as my own does? And furthermore, what a waste of time! I could have spent my time delighting in my God! 

And as for your comment on the sexual nature of the first song, obviously God created sex, and I believe its intimate  nature is just a fraction, a glimpse of the true intimacy we are meant to have with Him. Furthermore, sex itself is a gift from Him that, when not abused, glorifies Him. Understanding the emotional depth of romantic intimacy helps me, in my finite understanding, grasp the reality of His intimacy. 

It&#039;s so sad to me that soceity has been able to pervert our view of sexuality, to make even singing about one of God&#039;s greatest gifts to His children seem dirty or wrong. . . not that I even interpret that scripture from that perspective. I believe that Song of Songs is an incredible allegory of His great love for His Bride and the individual components of it :). But even outside of that interpretation, there is nothing wrong with delighting in His gifts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of your blog, this is the first post I have ever read, so I honestly have no idea what you personally believe in concerning to the Lord or anything of that nature <img src='http://undeception.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> . However, considering that you&#8217;re taking the time to write about worship songs, I&#8217;m dangerously assuming that you at least have particpated in worship services?</p>
<p>Regardless, if you know my awesome God, if you even have the slightest concept of His identity (not to insinuate that you&#8217;re unintelligent, I struggle with grasping in the slightest fraction of His infinite self.), you&#8217;ll know how pointless our worship is anyway. We are so inconsequential compared to Him, so utterly worthless without His love to give us value. </p>
<p>To Him, our finest singing voices, our most intellectual lyrics are still not even close to glorifying Him as much as He deserves. It makes no difference whether or not the lyrics are &#8216;weird&#8217; or not to Him; He simply delights in the fact that His children&#8217;s hearts are seeking to worship. I believe it is the heart behind the words, and that the lyrics just help us express that. And if He doesn&#8217;t care what the lyrics are, so long as they do not blaspheme Him (and no adoring heart ever could), then why in the world would I bother myself with criticising and dwelling on someone else&#8217;s worship that glorifies the Living God just as much as my own does? And furthermore, what a waste of time! I could have spent my time delighting in my God! </p>
<p>And as for your comment on the sexual nature of the first song, obviously God created sex, and I believe its intimate  nature is just a fraction, a glimpse of the true intimacy we are meant to have with Him. Furthermore, sex itself is a gift from Him that, when not abused, glorifies Him. Understanding the emotional depth of romantic intimacy helps me, in my finite understanding, grasp the reality of His intimacy. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s so sad to me that soceity has been able to pervert our view of sexuality, to make even singing about one of God&#8217;s greatest gifts to His children seem dirty or wrong. . . not that I even interpret that scripture from that perspective. I believe that Song of Songs is an incredible allegory of His great love for His Bride and the individual components of it <img src='http://undeception.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> . But even outside of that interpretation, there is nothing wrong with delighting in His gifts.</p>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://undeception.com/weird-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-538</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 12:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://undeception.com/index.php/2008/05/17/weird-worship/#comment-538</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s been interesting to explore Song of Songs from Seerveld&#039;s perspective exactly for the ANE relationship that you mention. Cultural context is one of my interests and studies like this that blow off the cobwebs of allegory and return to the literary roots of the text are intriguing.

I had a different song version of &quot;His Banner Over Me&quot; in mind when I first responded to your post, but regardless, yes, it is just a little weird...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been interesting to explore Song of Songs from Seerveld&#8217;s perspective exactly for the ANE relationship that you mention. Cultural context is one of my interests and studies like this that blow off the cobwebs of allegory and return to the literary roots of the text are intriguing.</p>
<p>I had a different song version of &#8220;His Banner Over Me&#8221; in mind when I first responded to your post, but regardless, yes, it is just a little weird&#8230;</p>
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