Undeception

I read as much of Cliff’s blog as I could before my eyes went buggy, but I think I got the gist of it.
Basically, I think he is arguing for evil being a necessary component of God’s master plan for the eradication (eventually) of evil, once and for all.
This is an interesting idea, but I didn’t read some ideas I would have liked to have been developed. I have two ideas I would like comment on:
1. If evil is endemic to the universe, then even the angels in heaven must contend with it in some fashion. In the distant past, satan had to have influenced their minds to some extent, so they at least came into contact with evil. Also, angels have visited the earth, and had to at least witness some evil goings on. So, if angels must strive (in some unfathomable way) with the question of evil, it might be that this is what is meant by “the angels themselves desire to look into”.
2. This whole universe is polar. That is, for every force, there is an opposite and usually equal force. Things happen in waves because there is a push-pull dynamic in nature that ensures that things cycle (waves of the sea, orbiting of the electrons about the atom, etc.) When God said “I create evil” was He merely being oblique, or did He mean what He said? Could it be that He created it so that “good” could also exist? After all, what would it REALLY be like if there was only “good” in the universe. I am not sure there would really be anything to strive against.
If you are like me, you get quickly bored on a vacation where its nothing but laying on the beach with nothing compelling to do. Don’t we actually NEED opposition in order to bring out the best in us? That it doesn’t always bring out the best is not a function of God’s will, it is a function of the creature caving under the pressure of lust and craving for power.
If the creation “used” the opposition properly, it would grow into something more beautiful than is possible without the opposition. That it doesn’t always is not God’s fault, it is creation’s fault. God calls the weak things to confound the “wise”, and in our (supposed) weakness we are gloriously strong.

Doug,

Stephen has compellingly argued your point #2, and I cannot disagree with the premise. However, the various “benefits” creation accrues from the existence of evil are, for me, better understood as by-products of a larger process, rather than the intentional workings of the Creator.

My Calvinist friends love to quote that enigmatic line from Isaiah 45:7 (and they do so with a strange sort of glee!). The verse reads to me more like “God plans calamity” at times for the judgment or instruction of his people, which would certainly align with the Jewish concepts of God in Isaiah’s day. I have a hard time with the notion that evil itself is the invention of God, nor do I believe that is what Isaiah meant to imply. James 1:13 seems to settle that question.

Cliff,
I certainly agree with James 1:13, (aftger all, its scripture )

But how does that address the creation of evil? Just because God cannot be touched by it or tempted by it, and that man commits evil when HE is tempted, how does that have anything to do with the origination of evil?

Your interpretation of Isaiah has merit, but that is your paraphrase, not what it says. I don’t think it is enigmatic at all.

As for your friends quoting it with glee, well, I just think that is wrong for them to do that. I am not really into scoring debate points, as though winning enough points settles the argument.
If there is anything I have learned it is that I must be fluid in my thoughts and not let myself get trapped into some kind of doctrinal stand which cannot change if new information comes to light. Sadly, too many do that.

I have been labeled Calvinist, although that is not what I believe. Unfortunately, when we begin to take a stand, we get tarred with the brush of earlier “isms” even if we only resemble them.

My beliefs are a synthesis of many isms, and only when I can participate in a blog like this do I feel “safe” to express how I really feel. That’s too bad really, because in the world of Christianity, we all ought to take on the mantle of humility and recognize our true position in the city of God.

Sorry for the OT rant, but it’s what was on my mind….

Your interpretation of Isaiah has merit, but that is your paraphrase, not what it says. I don’t think it is enigmatic at all.

Actually, that is what it says. The word for “evil” is elsewhere widely used in the sense of “calamity” and destruction brought about by God’s discretion – nothing we don’t see all over the prophets – and not as “moral evil”, which is what your usage implies.

(Sorry, not really going to butt in anymore – I’m preparing another post of my own on the topic )

Doug,

Steve beat me to the punch. Yes, there is a bit of interpretation involved in how I read Isaiah 45:7, but it is not my “paraphrase” as you suggest. It is my studied opinion based upon the Hebrew. In the context, I believe it is the best translation.

Actually, the portion of James 1:13 I had reference to is not the portion you quoted. Yes, God could create evil without being tempted by it. But James goes on to say that God does not tempt us with evil. How could that be true if he were the author of evil?

Cliff,

“How could that be true if he were the author of evil?”

I don’t think I ever said He is the “author” of evil, in the sense that He is “tempting” people to do evil. Obviously that would contradict James.

What I am saying is that evil (not in the persona of a devil, but the abstract concept of evil) came from somewhere. It didn’t just pop into existence as a force of its own, existing without God’s permission. It had to have originated somehow and someway.

I believe most christians believe that Lucifer (or satan, as you please) was the “inventor” of evil, and that because God could not have possibly come up with that concept, when WE do evil, we are doing it by the direct temptation of the devil. Or, when we do it on our own, it is because there is evil within us.

While either of those propositions might be true, I am questioning the original concept of how one deed might be called “evil” and another deed be labeled as “good” How is that possible without God being the arbiter of all that is good or bad? If there was not some standard-bearer who decided what is good or what is evil, how could it even exist in the first place? The answer is that it wouldn’t! There MUST be a standard, or else good and evil is meaningless.

That is why I am saying that God had to have created evil. Perhaps it was created just by the force of His own goodness. Anti-God would be, by definition, evil. It could be nothing else.

Humans and probably angels fall somewhere on the evil spectrum. That is because we are ALL unrighteous to one degree or another. In order to “be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect” we must have GODLY righteousness imputed to us through the blood of Jesus. Nothing else is sufficient to bring us into contact with a Holy God. We ALL exist with the potential to commit evil (and of course sin) and only by the covering for that sin will we ever be able to apprehend and maintain any kind of goodness that is acceptable in God’s sight.

Doug,

That is why I am saying that God had to have created evil. Perhaps it was created just by the force of His own goodness. Anti-God would be, by definition, evil. It could be nothing else.

The necessity of your first sentence is negated by the next three. I can totally sign on to the last three sentences from the above quote, and I can do so without subscribing to the notion that God created evil.

But my earlier point was that Isaiah 45:7 need not be understood as teaching us that God created evil, and since no other Biblical passage that I am aware of would suggest this notion (hence I called it “enigmatic”) I must conclude that the Bible probably does not teach us that God created (or “is the author of”) evil.

Did God create, say, lying? Or is Satan not, indeed, “the father of lies”?

“The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8) Does it not seem strange to you that God would create something so that he could later destroy it at great personal cost?

I will concede that there must be some philosophical sense in which God creates all things, or at least creates the possibility for all things, including evil. But it is quite a different thing for God to boast “I create evil” and for certain Calvinists to run with the idea that God created and ordained evil to somehow maximize his glory. If that is true, our whole gospel is turned into some kind of freakish, bizarre tale.

But it is quite a different thing for God to boast “I create evil” and for certain Calvinists to run with the idea that God created and ordained evil to somehow maximize his glory. If that is true, our whole gospel is turned into some kind of freakish, bizarre tale.

With all due respect to my Reformed brothers, any time I hear Calvinist theology it strikes me as some kind of freakish, bizarre tale. Yet I never seem to hear better sense from anyone on evolution and the Bible than Reformed Christians. (See Glover, Gordon J., and Matheson, Stephen.)