Strawman Slain: Perpetrator Sought

March 11th, 2009 | 38 Comments

A one-minute podcast that often has some interesting little tidbits of historical trivia, generally sharing my perspective, came out with an episode two days ago (March 9) that I just listened to today. Without my telling you, I want you to guess who this podcast is from. This is what was said:

Evolutionists contend that ancient man was intellectually inferior to modern man. This theory does not fit the facts: the intellectual capacity of ancient man is no different from modern man because God created us in His image. We should expect to find evidence of that creative capacity soon after Creation — and we do. No one has been able to duplicate the pyramids in Egypt. Heron of Alexandria [was a remarkable early engineer, a few of whose inventions are briefly described in the podcast.] These are just a few examples of the intellect of ancient man that refute the claims of evolutionists.

Doubtless there will be people who listen to this and, since it comes from the head of a Christian ministry, accept it at face value. Whether they are just happy to accept anything that pooh-poohs evolution (no matter how unjustly it represents it), are lacking critical thinking skills (only a modicum of which would throw the quote above on its head), or are simply gullible (“This person has a Christian ministry, and Christian ministers always say good stuff”), I want to make it clear that I am not targeting them but the actual close-minded individual (notice I didn’t say “nincompoop”, an emotive pejorative I would like to avoid) propagating this nonsense.

People who take on a leadership role in educating Christians should at the very least get one or two facts straight about the subject they’re critiquing. I’m going to spend a whole lot more time on this than it deserves, in part to show how inane and indefensible these sorts of attacks usually are and also to point out an example of someone whose stance on many issues I respect and share but who still requires accountability for spreading stupidity.

Do “evolutionists”, by which this person means virtually everyone involved in the scientific disciplines, claim that “ancient man was intellectually inferior to modern man”? One can’t resort to trying to find a quotation from some scientist saying this sometime in the past, as the barb was quite specific: the claim was that an unqualified group referred to as “evolutionists” contend (present tense) that this is so. But there’s also no small ambiguity in the use of “ancient” vs. “modern” (more on that in a minute).

The argument that “because God created us in His image” necessitates a continuity of intellectual capacity in humans implies something I think this person would reject under different circumstances: are there not humans even today with lower intellectual capacity than many other humans, individuals not capable of engineering pyramids and aeolipiles? Are such individuals not, therefore, made in the image of God? Apart from any scientific objections to common descent, there’s some significant question begging going on with the implied definition of “image of God”; there is considerable debate over what exactly the imago dei is, even among purveyors of folk science. The assumption here seems to be that it is the “creative capacity” (in the next sentence) that is a sign of the image of God, a wildly problematic position considering the evidence of creative capacity (which in the context of the podcast concerns invention) in creatures even outside the particularly intellectual primate family. No, no animal has ever made a primitive engine as did Hero(n) of Alexandria, but then again, neither have — or could — I!  (Of course, one might respond by saying that this is because my own image of God has probably been revoked because of my stance on evolution…)

The next statement, “We should expect to find evidence of that creative capacity soon after Creation — and we do,” is stupefying. If this person expects that the adduced examples of invention are evidence of this capacity “soon after Creation”, we must reckon the creation to have occurred “soon” before the pyramids, c. 2000 BC!  This gives us the creation of the world taking place a shade over four thousand years ago.  Talk about “young earth” creationism — that’s well before even Bishop Ussher’s date!  Considering that we have archaeological evidence of people, ostensibly bearing the image of God also, thousands of years before the pyramids who lived and died without creating such monumental inventions as described in this podcast (and for that matter, people groups discovered in fairly recent times who somehow never got around to exercising their “creative capacity” by inventing the wheel), we have some major problems here.

Moreover, what thinking individual would consider denying, as this person claims that “evolutionists” do, the intellectual capacity of the humans who engineered the pyramids? These humans are only relatively ancient: modern man emerged some 200,000 years ago.

Does this person honestly think that any of that drivel on the podcast makes any sort of credible claim about evolution, or the “intellectual capacity” of those who accept it? First comes a truthful statement, that scientists believe early humans were intellectually “inferior” to humans alive today; surely our species has advanced over hundreds of millennia. Then by sleight of hand worthy of Kent Hovind, this person pretends that evolutionary theory contradicts itself by pointing to a claim that “evolutionists” never considered making (“ancient” Egyptians were too intellectually inferior to create anything complex).

So, do “evolutionists” contend that “ancient man” as defined by the given examples (Old Kingdom Egyptians or Greeks of the first millennium B.C.) was “intellectually inferior to modern man”?  Of course not.  Naturally, this person’s dismissive parting shot, a claim to have refuted this non-existent contention, hit its target, which was also its source: thin air.

This little minute-long rant was either an intentional gross mischaracterization from an individual who is actually informed but bent on misrepresenting the rudiments of evolutionary theory, or it was an unmistakable sign that this individual doesn’t know the topic well enough to even begin discussing it, much less talk about “refuting” anything. I’m undecided. What do you think?  And who was this mysterious podcaster?*  (Keep in mind when answering these questions that this individual has written whole books attacking “Darwinism”.)

* I say “podcaster” — but this person is known more for books, public speaking, and radio shows than for podcasting.

March 11th, 2009

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  • http://alphonsuspeck.wordpress.com/ Alphonsus

    As much as I hate to say it, I have to believe that the podcaster was genuinely that ignorant. It pains me because I hate to think that ANYONE is that ignorant. But this argument just seems to ludicrous for anyone of any real intelligence to make up. I could be underestimating the pure creative malice of one who prays on the ignorance of other people to make money, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Never attribute to deliberate malice that which can be attributed to sheer stupidity. If I knew who the author was, I might change my mind. I have no clue, however.

    Alphonsus´s last blog post..Why I am an Agnostic

    • http://undeception.com/ Steve

      I assure you that this person has some real intelligence; that or some of this person’s idiocy overlaps with mine. ;)

      And no, I am confident that this person is no mustache-twirling villain. The benefit of the doubt is much better.

  • http://alphonsuspeck.wordpress.com Alphonsus

    As much as I hate to say it, I have to believe that the podcaster was genuinely that ignorant. It pains me because I hate to think that ANYONE is that ignorant. But this argument just seems to ludicrous for anyone of any real intelligence to make up. I could be underestimating the pure creative malice of one who prays on the ignorance of other people to make money, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Never attribute to deliberate malice that which can be attributed to sheer stupidity. If I knew who the author was, I might change my mind. I have no clue, however.

    Alphonsus´s last blog post..Why I am an Agnostic

    • http://undeception.com Steve

      I assure you that this person has some real intelligence; that or some of this person’s idiocy overlaps with mine. ;)

      And no, I am confident that this person is no mustache-twirling villain. The benefit of the doubt is much better.

  • Vance

    Makes you want to slap someone, doesn’t it?

    I think it falls under the category of believing what you so desperately want to believe, and thus being willing to accept any argument in favor of it, no matter how idiotic.

    • http://undeception.com/ Steve

      Vance, as usual, I think you nailed it. Evolution is so wrong that practically anything that contradicts it has to be true.

  • Vance

    Makes you want to slap someone, doesn’t it?

    I think it falls under the category of believing what you so desperately want to believe, and thus being willing to accept any argument in favor of it, no matter how idiotic.

    • http://undeception.com Steve

      Vance, as usual, I think you nailed it. Evolution is so wrong that practically anything that contradicts it has to be true.

  • http://heathershodgepodge.blogspot.com/ Heather

    I am going to guess that this individual wears a beard and speaks with an accent – am I right?

    • http://undeception.com/ Steve

      Heh…no, not him. Remember, I said this was “someone whose stance on many issues I respect and share…” ;)

      • http://thecreationofanevolutionist.blogspot.com/ Mike Beidler

        I know who it is. I know who it is. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

    • http://thecreationofanevolutionist.blogspot.com/ Mike Beidler

      Sean Connery?

      • http://undeception.com/ Steve

        No, I actually agree with Connery on something: “Scotland forever”!

  • http://heathershodgepodge.blogspot.com Heather

    I am going to guess that this individual wears a beard and speaks with an accent – am I right?

    • http://undeception.com Steve

      Heh…no, not him. Remember, I said this was “someone whose stance on many issues I respect and share…” ;)

      • http://thecreationofanevolutionist.blogspot.com Mike Beidler

        I know who it is. I know who it is. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

    • http://thecreationofanevolutionist.blogspot.com Mike Beidler

      Sean Connery?

      • http://undeception.com Steve

        No, I actually agree with Connery on something: “Scotland forever”!

  • AMW

    Steve,

    Do paleontologists think that the humans of 200K years ago were really intellectually inferior? I mean in their actual capacities, not in the state of their existing knowledge.

    It seems to me that massive intelligence married to gross ignorance is the natural state of mankind. When people live in small, isolated communities, that massive intelligence from a given individual may shed light on this or that problem, but the knowledge doesn’t get spread very far. Moreover, the more brains you have talking to each other, it seems the more knowledge can be generated. That’s tough to arrange when there just aren’t a lot of people, and when their spending most of their time and energy scrambling for food and shelter.

    • http://undeception.com/ Steve

      Source?

      ;) Just kidding. Actually, considering the vast leaps in technology and learning that have taken place since civilization sprang up around 10,000 years ago, I think you may be on the right track with your assessment of the collective for bringing out the potential of the mind. But it’s likely, isn’t it, that some selection has taken place since Homo sapiens appeared in favor of higher intelligence? At very least, our Homo predecessors before sapiens are surely believed to have been less developed intellectually. But your point is well taken. I wouldn’t say they were sheer idiots, anyway.

      • Vance

        Yes, your date of 10,000 for the rise of “civilization” is the more current version, since the term has broadened a bit and we have more evidence of groups before Sumer. There is a great book called After the Ice which covers all of that. So, ignore my use of the older, more conventional, but less accurate 3,000 to 4,000 BC below.

        Also, we saw a very big jump in the Upper Paleolithic that has even been called a revolution, where we see the rise of art, burials and other evidences of symbolic thought, around 40,000 BC or so.

      • AMW

        Steve,

        When I make assertions that the earliest humans took rocket ships to Mercury to bring back quicksilver for their thermometers you can ask me for a source with a straight face.

    • Vance

      AMW, a couple of good points there regarding human knowledge expansion, and it explains the occasional “explosions” of cultural advances, especially around 4,000 to 3,000 BC or so, with the rise of the first “civilizations”. But, the evolution of human intelligence itself (which is related to the rise of knowledge, but as you point out, in no way identical) is something traced by things like brain size and some cultural indicators. The rise of “modern” humans around 200,000 BC is based on certain morphological changes (brain size, body structure, etc) that would make humans by around that time fairly indistinguishable from humans today. And, yes, they could very possibly be as intelligent.

      But humans have continued to evolve, and this means in brain ability as well, over the last 200,000 years, so there should be some differences even though that time frame is not dramatic in evolutionary terms. My guess is that if you took 100 babies from that time and raised them today (thus, altering the “nurture” but not the “nature”), some might be considered highly intelligent, but the majority might still fall into the lower than average category. Mostly speculation there, though.

      I am not an expert, though, so this could be off-base to some degree.

      • AMW

        Point well taken. I’m sure there’s been development. I’m just equally sure that the difference in intellectual capacity explains a fairly small percentage of the differences in knowledge and living standards.

        • Vance

          Absolutely. There is a great dynamic to accumulated knowledge which has nothing at all to do with intellectual capacity. Especially if you go back to just, say, 20,000 years ago, we almost assuredly have no greater intellectual capacity at all. They were just starting “from scratch”, as it were. Even during the darkest ages since, knowledge passed down and was built upon.

          Just look at the level of total knowledge and living standards in the last 150 years.

  • AMW

    Steve,

    Do paleontologists think that the humans of 200K years ago were really intellectually inferior? I mean in their actual capacities, not in the state of their existing knowledge.

    It seems to me that massive intelligence married to gross ignorance is the natural state of mankind. When people live in small, isolated communities, that massive intelligence from a given individual may shed light on this or that problem, but the knowledge doesn’t get spread very far. Moreover, the more brains you have talking to each other, it seems the more knowledge can be generated. That’s tough to arrange when there just aren’t a lot of people, and when their spending most of their time and energy scrambling for food and shelter.

    • http://undeception.com Steve

      Source?

      ;) Just kidding. Actually, considering the vast leaps in technology and learning that have taken place since civilization sprang up around 10,000 years ago, I think you may be on the right track with your assessment of the collective for bringing out the potential of the mind. But it’s likely, isn’t it, that some selection has taken place since Homo sapiens appeared in favor of higher intelligence? At very least, our Homo predecessors before sapiens are surely believed to have been less developed intellectually. But your point is well taken. I wouldn’t say they were sheer idiots, anyway.

      • Vance

        Yes, your date of 10,000 for the rise of “civilization” is the more current version, since the term has broadened a bit and we have more evidence of groups before Sumer. There is a great book called After the Ice which covers all of that. So, ignore my use of the older, more conventional, but less accurate 3,000 to 4,000 BC below.

        Also, we saw a very big jump in the Upper Paleolithic that has even been called a revolution, where we see the rise of art, burials and other evidences of symbolic thought, around 40,000 BC or so.

      • AMW

        Steve,

        When I make assertions that the earliest humans took rocket ships to Mercury to bring back quicksilver for their thermometers you can ask me for a source with a straight face.

    • Vance

      AMW, a couple of good points there regarding human knowledge expansion, and it explains the occasional “explosions” of cultural advances, especially around 4,000 to 3,000 BC or so, with the rise of the first “civilizations”. But, the evolution of human intelligence itself (which is related to the rise of knowledge, but as you point out, in no way identical) is something traced by things like brain size and some cultural indicators. The rise of “modern” humans around 200,000 BC is based on certain morphological changes (brain size, body structure, etc) that would make humans by around that time fairly indistinguishable from humans today. And, yes, they could very possibly be as intelligent.

      But humans have continued to evolve, and this means in brain ability as well, over the last 200,000 years, so there should be some differences even though that time frame is not dramatic in evolutionary terms. My guess is that if you took 100 babies from that time and raised them today (thus, altering the “nurture” but not the “nature”), some might be considered highly intelligent, but the majority might still fall into the lower than average category. Mostly speculation there, though.

      I am not an expert, though, so this could be off-base to some degree.

      • AMW

        Point well taken. I’m sure there’s been development. I’m just equally sure that the difference in intellectual capacity explains a fairly small percentage of the differences in knowledge and living standards.

        • Vance

          Absolutely. There is a great dynamic to accumulated knowledge which has nothing at all to do with intellectual capacity. Especially if you go back to just, say, 20,000 years ago, we almost assuredly have no greater intellectual capacity at all. They were just starting “from scratch”, as it were. Even during the darkest ages since, knowledge passed down and was built upon.

          Just look at the level of total knowledge and living standards in the last 150 years.

  • http://www.sonlightblog.com/ Luke Holzmann

    [heh] This is an example of only hearing what you’re trained to hear. I only noticed the problem of his use of “God created us in His image.” I totally missed the rest [smile].

    Thanks for sharing your rebuttal. I now have an ear for a few more strawmen, and hopefully will be more discerning in the future.

    Hmm… my guess is that is what is happening here, more than merely pooh-poohing evolution, a lack of critical thinking skills, gullibility, or even closed-mindedness: If they are anything like me, they just hadn’t heard the rebuttal before and so hadn’t thought it needed refuting. My hope is that more people will hear the responses and learn from them. And that is why I’m so glad you came out and talked it out rather than stopping with: These people are nincompoops [smile]. Your approach is much, much better [smile].

    ~Luke

    [Edit: And happy birthday!]

  • http://www.sonlightblog.com/ Luke Holzmann

    [heh] This is an example of only hearing what you’re trained to hear. I only noticed the problem of his use of “God created us in His image.” I totally missed the rest [smile].

    Thanks for sharing your rebuttal. I now have an ear for a few more strawmen, and hopefully will be more discerning in the future.

    Hmm… my guess is that is what is happening here, more than merely pooh-poohing evolution, a lack of critical thinking skills, gullibility, or even closed-mindedness: If they are anything like me, they just hadn’t heard the rebuttal before and so hadn’t thought it needed refuting. My hope is that more people will hear the responses and learn from them. And that is why I’m so glad you came out and talked it out rather than stopping with: These people are nincompoops [smile]. Your approach is much, much better [smile].

    ~Luke

    [Edit: And happy birthday!]

  • http://www.thesmoakhouse.com/ Josh H.

    Gary Demar–of course you know that I subscribe to that podcast as well…so I guess I sort of have an unfair advantage, :)

  • http://www.thesmoakhouse.com Josh H.

    Gary Demar–of course you know that I subscribe to that podcast as well…so I guess I sort of have an unfair advantage, :)

  • Norm

    Stephen,

    Let me muddy the waters a little more on this subject of being created in the Image of God.

    The first thing we need to do is define who was created in the image of God. Most folks think that Adam was but actually he was created in God’s likeness (Gen 5:1) and his son Seth was created in Adam’s image again being only the likeness of God (5:3). Created in God’s Image was first broached in Gen 1:26 which may be considered as prophetic and also more of a table of contents introductory Prologue than a prelude generalized story about Adams creation. We have ancient writers such as Augustine and Barnabas who knew nothing about evolution making the claim that being created in God’s image was prophecy describing what would transpire in the last Days when the Messiah/Christ came and imbued God’s Spiritual Image upon mankind. Many NT scriptures confirm that actuality.

    2Co 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, … And WE all, … ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord WHO IS THE SPIRIT.

    The Hebrew word for Image and Likeness found in Genesis (actually both are found together in 1:26) has significantly different theological purposes in their intent. Genesis is a very detailed and exacting writing with words being very carefully used and measured out. Anyone who studies Genesis in depth would understand that this is an accurate assessment.

    So when people get into a biological discussion based upon the Hebrew construct of “Image of God” they do so at great peril and most very probably completely out of touch with the Hebrew theological rationale for that particular wording.

    When we get right down to it Paul pretty well spells out for us what “likeness” and “image” pertain to in 1 Cor 15:49.

    1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust (Adam), we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven (Christ).

    Just like Seth we once bore Adam’s fleshly image of weakness but when we put on Christ we do so in the higher Spiritual image. Paul is saying that in Adam we once resided in the lesser qualities of God’s likeness but through Christ we now reside in the Spiritual Image of God.
    Life through the Spirit.

    This IMO is what the true IMAGE OF GOD reflects theologically and not biologically.

    Being an evolutionist I find the discussion about the biological nature of mankind’s growth in intelligence a fascinating study. I also love the study of theology and especially Genesis and its implications.

    Norm

  • Norm

    Stephen,

    Let me muddy the waters a little more on this subject of being created in the Image of God.

    The first thing we need to do is define who was created in the image of God. Most folks think that Adam was but actually he was created in God’s likeness (Gen 5:1) and his son Seth was created in Adam’s image again being only the likeness of God (5:3). Created in God’s Image was first broached in Gen 1:26 which may be considered as prophetic and also more of a table of contents introductory Prologue than a prelude generalized story about Adams creation. We have ancient writers such as Augustine and Barnabas who knew nothing about evolution making the claim that being created in God’s image was prophecy describing what would transpire in the last Days when the Messiah/Christ came and imbued God’s Spiritual Image upon mankind. Many NT scriptures confirm that actuality.

    2Co 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit, … And WE all, … ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord WHO IS THE SPIRIT.

    The Hebrew word for Image and Likeness found in Genesis (actually both are found together in 1:26) has significantly different theological purposes in their intent. Genesis is a very detailed and exacting writing with words being very carefully used and measured out. Anyone who studies Genesis in depth would understand that this is an accurate assessment.

    So when people get into a biological discussion based upon the Hebrew construct of “Image of God” they do so at great peril and most very probably completely out of touch with the Hebrew theological rationale for that particular wording.

    When we get right down to it Paul pretty well spells out for us what “likeness” and “image” pertain to in 1 Cor 15:49.

    1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust (Adam), we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven (Christ).

    Just like Seth we once bore Adam’s fleshly image of weakness but when we put on Christ we do so in the higher Spiritual image. Paul is saying that in Adam we once resided in the lesser qualities of God’s likeness but through Christ we now reside in the Spiritual Image of God.
    Life through the Spirit.

    This IMO is what the true IMAGE OF GOD reflects theologically and not biologically.

    Being an evolutionist I find the discussion about the biological nature of mankind’s growth in intelligence a fascinating study. I also love the study of theology and especially Genesis and its implications.

    Norm