As I stated in Part 2, I reject the notion that foreknowledge is prescriptive. I hold to the conviction that there is an interplay between man’s choice and God’s choice. One cannot rationally hold a robot responsible for the destruction it wreaks if it merely follows the software intentionally programmed to make it destructive. Yet the Bible throughout calls people and nations into account for their own choices and decisions.

In Romans 9, Paul gives two examples of “vessels of destruction”, Esau and Pharaoh. Reformed theologians will often argue that these vessels only have the appearance of choosing wicked behavior: in actuality, they (like everyone else) have no free will to choose; my position is that they had the actual ability to choose, and if God were left out of the equation, their nature and character was bent so that they could only hardly have chosen any other way than they did This may seem a trifling distinction in practice, since if God creates people in full knowledge of what good or evil they will do, if He chooses the “hardware” with which they make their decisions, it’s hard not to see that God is passively determining the path of certain people one way or another. However, do not forget that He is said to not be willing that any should perish (2 Pe 3.10), that He takes no delight in the death of the wicked (Ez 18.32), and that “God desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Ti 2.4). Taking these passages into consideration implies that, as a rule, He supplies mankind with “hardware” that could go either way, and only occasionally has He stacked the deck one way or another, as it were. I explained in Part 2 why Pharaoh, for instance, was chosen to be a vessel of destruction; Paul is very clear that vessels of and honor and destruction were chosen only for the purpose of fulfilling “His purpose in election” (Ro 9.11). What is this purpose?

In short, His purpose was very clearly laid out in Romans 9 through 11. It is to extend salvation to as many as possible, not to force water down the throat of one half of humanity and dehydrate the other, but to give all humanity an appealing salt block from which they would acquire and recognize their own thirst. I believe that purpose has, by and large, been accomplished. That’s why I began with and will now end with discussion of Ephesians 1. Please allow me to quote the relevant passage in its entirety.


Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment-to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession-to the praise of his glory.

Some have seen that Paul refers to “we” and “us” in Ephesians 1, to the effect that “we, who were the first to hope in Christ” (v. 12) were those predestined, in stark contrast to “you also” (v. 13) who received salvation subsequently; sometimes this is meant to refer to a distinction between the Jews to whom Christ came and the Gentiles who were grafted in later. I think there’s a much better argument to be made that the “us” and “you” comments aren’t meant to be fully contrastive. For one, Paul in the previous verses never delimits “us” to any particular group that did not include the Ephesian Christians, and so the natural reading for the audience would have been to infer Paul’s “we” and “us” as including them. Regardless, I think those who “first believed” refer not to the Jews who served God under the Mosaic Covenant, but the followers of Jesus, who James said were “a kind of first fruits of all creation” (Ja 1.18) because they received the promise of the New Covenant while the Old was still passing (He 8.13; 2 Co 3.11); that Christian and not pre-Christian Jewish believers are the referents here is strongly suggested by verse 9, in which Paul describes “us” as those to whom “the mystery of his will” was made known (Gk. gnorizo; cf. the same verb used in reference to Paul’s understanding of the mystery of the Gentile’s induction to the faith in Ep 3.3). Whether one sees this group as comprising the first century believers in toto or simply the original believing Jews (e.g. the Apostles), it depends on if one buys the “we/you” co-reference argument I laid out above. Regardless, no one can deny that Paul in this important “predestination” passage, explicitly limits the scope of predestination to a “first” group. Are we in the twenty-first century the “first” anything?

The election Paul refers to in Ephesians and Romans had a contemporary (first-century) relevance. It served the purpose of extending God’s redemption: the hardening of Israel meant for the purpose of grafting the Gentiles into the tree of faith described in Romans 9-11 is described as God’s method of offering salvation to more than simply the original believers. From Jacob and Esau to Pharaoh to the “first fruits” Christians, God’s purpose for election, to advance His plan of redemption, was fulfilled at the time of the revelation of those believe in Jesus as the true sons of God (Ro 8.14-19) and the casting out of the slave woman (Ga 4). “The redemption of those who are God’s possession” was the completion of the salvific work when life after death was secured at the Resurrection of the Dead.

My understanding, then, is that we can’t equate Paul’s and Luke’s “elect” with modern Christians, although I am not presumptuous enough to preclude the possibility that God may continue to “elect” here and there in order to advance redemption yet further. I think the majority of humanity lies somewhere in the middle ground between the vessels of honor and vessels of destruction whom He has weighted in one way or the other for the purpose of wooing those vessels for whom free will remains virtually untethered. Free will and sovereignty are interlocked aspects of the same machine: foreknowledge precedes predestination, and predestination is how God reacts to His advance knowledge. God has situated certain people and groups within history as His sovereignty has need, and has “locked in their votes” so that He receives all glory from their actions (Ep 1.14b).

It becomes more and more obvious to me that eschatology is not just the fringe doctrine I once thought it was.


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  • Joseff
    Greetings again Steve!

    I posted this yesterday but I think I hit preview instead of Post, so here it is. I will read your other articles and respond to your reply later on when I get some time.

    Thanks for responding. I do hope you don't mind the long nature of these types of conversation! I actually enjoy them to be honest, lol.

    I would like to respond to some of the major comments you made. If I'm not mistaken, you have some misunderstandings about what exactly myself (and every other monergist in history) actually believe. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Firstly, Israel's election in the OT. My question to non-Calvinists is this: Why is there an uproar about individuals being chosen for something that others are not, when this is exactly how God worked in the OT?

    God chose Israel alone out of all the nations of the earth, and as a consequence they received the following: The prophets, the temple, the covenants, the promises, a promised land, the judges, a king, the scriptures, salvation itself, the list goes on and on.

    God did not extend this same blessing to anyone else on the face of the earth. Every other nation was left (justly) in total darkness and ignorance of God, without the law, and without access to this grace...

    ...and everyone seems to be fine with that. Now all of a sudden, we get to the NT, and God cannot (in the non-Calvinist view) set His covenental love on one person in a way that differs from another person. One mention of particularity or unconditional election results in all kinds of accusations such as God is unjust, arbitrary, a monster, a tyrant, etc.

    Yet God explicitly says, several times: "I will have mercy on whomever I will, and I will have compassion on whomever I will" (or have love). Let it be known that "mercy" and "love" used in this way are verbs. (See Rom 9:15 concordance) It is not merely that God has a passive, romantic "feeling" of compassion or mercy towards people, but literally, God "mercies" and "compassions" whomever He will.

    So the question is: Why the fierce opposition to God choosing, loving, and bestowing undeserved mercies on a particular people, (Israel in the OT, the chosen Church in the NT), while withholding it from the rest, when this is exactly how God has worked for the entire human history, and it is in precisely this way that the Christian religion even exists at all?

    There is no reason to need to explain away clear verses such as "God chose you from the beginning for salvation" 2 Th 2:13 or "In love he predestined us..according to the good pleasure of His will" Eph 1, or "Whom He foreknew, He predestined..." Rom 8, or "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" Acts 13:48

    There is nothing in those verses, or in the entire NT, that even hints that God's choosing is grounded on the foreseen faith of people. Not one scintilla of a verse even hints at anything like that. Yes, men are commanded to believe, but it is by unaided logic that it is assumed by non-Calvinists that the belief must be the first cause of God's choice and the salvific mercy extended by it.

    In the Calvinist view (and the Bible which I will prove below), even a Christian's faith is ultimately a gift from God, therefore his faith cannot possibly be the grounds whereby he is chosen for salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation, from start to finish, is of the Lord. He predestines, he calls, he justifies, and he glorifies (Rom 8). Every single person called, in the sense of Rom 8:29-30, is justified. There is no such thing as being called by God but not being justified.

    The reason anyone has faith at all is because of God's work of grace in regeneration (1 Jn 5:1, John 1:12-13, Eph 2), and the reason anyone is born again at all is because of God's undeserved mercy.

    Logically, in order to cause some people to be born again, God had to, at some point, make a choice as to who He would and would not do this to.

    Next, as mentioned above, faith itself is clearly a gift from God and a result of regeneration, not the product of the unregenerate human nature that is "hostile towards God" and spiritually dead and blind. A man cannot even see the kingdom, or understand it, while unregenerate, so how can he reach out and grasp for it? He cannot, as Christ clearly says in John 6 : No man can come to me unless the Father enables him. In that same chapter, Christ explains what this "enablement" is: "It is the Spirit that gives life...the flesh profits nothing!" Nothing! In your view, the flesh profits something, (in that man can exercise saving faith prior to the new birth, or "in the flesh") and not just any small thing, but the greatest thing in the entire universe - eternal salvation!

    Here are some verses that prove faith is ultimately originated in God and the gift of God, not the product of unregenerate human nature.

    Ph 1:29, it's given to us to both believe, and suffer. Would you argue that this verse is saying that God merely allows for the possibility of belief and suffering? Can Christians choose to partake in the belief, but not the suffering that comes with it? Clearly the verse states that both faith and persecution are given to us.

    Eph 2:8-9, by grace are you saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, but the gift of God. Is the faith our own doing, or not? Since faith is clearly the result , and not the cause, of the new birth, (Per 1 Jn 5:1) the concept of monergism is in perfect accord with this verse.

    2 Tim 2:25 states that God gives repentance, therefore even repentance, which is pleasing to God, has its origin in God himself! For who can give God what He desires and commands other than God himself? God's gift of repentance is, itself, ultimately a gift of grace. Yes, we are the ones that exercise faith and repentance, but we do not "create" them in ourselves, in our unregenerate state.

    Again, both faith and repentance are the results, and not the cause, of regeneration (being born again), for until then, we are "hostile towards God" who are "unable to obey him (Rom 8:7-8) and we "cannot see" and we "find the gospel foolishness". Would you ever expect a man who finds something foolishness and literally hates it to embrace it with his entire might? Surely not!

    In John 6 Christ says "no man can come to me unless the Father grants it to him", and then He says "everyone that the Father gives me will come to me". Even a man's coming to Christ in saving faith is ultimately a work of God. The men "come to Christ" as a result, and not the cause, of the Father "giving them to the Son". There is no way around this passage. Earlier you said that "all believers are given to the Son", but that's the exact opposite of what the verse says Steve. It says that men believe on Christbecause the Father gave them to the Son! All that the Father gives to the Son WILL come to the Son! You have charged me with reading the passage with "Calvinist glasses on", but Steve, it's passages like this that MADE me a Calvinist! Not vice versa!

    Furthermore, Christ says in John 10:26, to some unbelievers, "The reason you do not believe is because you are not my sheep". Please note that Christ did not say "The reason you are not my sheep is because you do not believe", he says the opposite. The reason any believe at all is because they are His sheep, which Christ says "My Father gave them to me..and I will give them eternal life..they hear my voice and follow me". You do not become sheep by believing, or else Christ would have said the opposite. He outright tells them what the source of their unbelief was - they are not His sheep.

    Regarding the idea that election is conditioned on faith (hence, Arminianism's conditional election), the Synod of Dordt, where Arminianism was branded heresy, says this:

    "For this does away with all effective functioning of God's grace in our conversion and subjects the activity of Almighty God to the will of man; it is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe by virtue of the effective working of God's mighty strength (Eph. 1:19), and that God fulfills the undeserved good will of his kindness and the work of faith in us with power (2 Thess. 1:11), and likewise that his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3)."

    Please, I urge you to look at the passages cited in the above statement. Eph 1:19 clearly states that we believe "according to" (or because of) His power. Eph also states that we were chosen "in order" to become blameless, not because we already were! Anyone with faith is justified and blameless, and Eph clearly states that we are chosen in ORDER for that, not because of it!

    Peter says of the recipients of his letter (2 Pet 1:1) that they "obtained their faith". Does your theology allow room for a faith that is "obtained" or received from an outside source? It does not. Two verses later, he says that everything we have for life and godliness was given to us as a gift. Does this include everything but faith? Are we to stand before God and say "God, I owe you credit for every part of my salvation, except my faith, that was my doing!!" Who would ever utter such a thing? Steve, your theology ultimately allows for it.

    I say all of that to say this: Reformed theology simply contends for the idea that there is absolutely no part of salvation that is not ultimately God's gift. Even our faith we cannot take credit for, in accordance with Eph 2 and 1 Cor 1.

    There seems to be a misunderstanding about the nature of faith in our modern day, and especially in non-Calvinism.

    We are not saved by faith. Faith is not the cause of our salvation. Faith has no redeeming value in and of itself. The Bible says we are saved by grace, andthrough faith.

    We are not saved "on account of faith". God did not say "If you create some faith, I will save you". Never is this the way faith is spoken of. Not only is faith a gift from God, but faith is simply the ordained means by which God connects us to Christ's finished work on the cross. Thus, we see that salvation from beginning to end is a gracious work of the Triune God. The Father elects, the Son atones, the Spirit regenerates which results in faith and repentance. Just as breath is the result of, and not the cause, of physical birth and life, faith is the "first gasp for air" upon receiving spiritual life (Being born again, Eph 2) Again, see 1 John 5:1 which clearly and plainly states that faith is the result of being born of God, not vice versa.

    Yes, we are justified by faith alone (Sola fide), but you cannot take sola fide and rip it apart from sola gratia (grace alone). Sola fide is because of and in light of sola gratia! Grace is what saves, and faith is simply the gift God gave us which links us to Christ's work, resulting in our justification. Again, God's work of Grace. He is the cause of salvation, as He is the "author and finisher of our faith" Heb 12:2. Synergism allows for the idea that man is the author and finisher of his own faith. The message of the NT is "The believers will be saved". It never says "those who created some faith while still unregenerate, will be born again, and then saved on that basis"

    Next, conditional election is contrary to the idea of God's decretive will. He boldly declares "I declare the end from the beginning...my council will stand, I will do all my pleasure". God is the Sovereign who has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, big and small, good and evil. How then, can we adhere to a theology that makes God subject to the will of man, in that God cannot work unless man allows him? God is left in a corner of the universe wringing his hands in anticipation hoping some will see His excellency and allow Him to save them. God becomes nothing more than a reactor. He reacts to what men will do, and then can (or cannot) work based on the creature's wills.

    Next, you said:

    You keep attacking fatalism as though this is not a Reformed position. You may not be a fatalist, but fatalists are definitely a significant constituency. You can’t really discount that fatalist Calvinists (such as most supralapsarians) are numerous, vocal, and have an authentic Reformed pedigree.


    Whether infra or supra, fatalism is never, ever an issue in Calvinism. I assure you that. Fatalism is this: "No matter how you feel about it, you will go to heaven or hell, no matter what you do, no matter how badly you wanted the opposite"

    This is absolutely not the case. Men go to hell willingly and freely because they willingly reject Christ. It's what they want to do. They want to reject Christ. Unbelief is not a passive non-action, it's a choice. The thing is, all fallen men without God's gracious intervention would make this choice. Christ says "you are unwilling to come to me". This is true of 100% of the human race. All fallen men by nature are unwilling to submit to God and Christ, because they are spiritually dead, unregenerate, haters of God, hostile towards God who cannot see the Kingdom and find the gospel foolishness. This necessitates regeneration. The nature must be changed. You must be born again. The eyes that cannot see must be given sight. The stony heart that is hostile must be disarmed and changed to a heart of flesh.

    Faith before regeneration is as nonsensical as taking a blind man to art show and asking him to pick his favorite piece. In like manner, a blind man does not need new eyes, he needs sight itself! This is regeneration, the spiritual resurrection we experience as a result of the Holy Spirit who operates "when and where and how He pleases, like the wind blows" (John 3) The reformation cry was "regeneration precedes faith" which truly makes salvation of the Lord, from start to end.

    Likewise, when men receive Christ they do so willingly and freely as a result of God's grace, which He owes no man, and would be just to withhold it from the entire race. Nobody ever ends up at their final destination kicking and screaming. Nobody goes to hell who wanted to be saved and submit to Christ. There is absolutely no such thing as desiring Christ and salvation and repentance, but not receiving it. There is no room for fatalism in reformed theology.

    Next, you said:

    I don't see the reformed “Take it or leave it” anywhere in Scripture except Jesus’ charge that went specifically to the Apostles concerning their particular mission to the Jews (Mat 10.5,6,14), a practice that was extended to foreign Jews later by the Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13.51).


    You must be kidding. Not only did Christ speak in parables to conceal the truth from those it was not meant for (Mat 13), but Christ explicitly thanks the Father for "hiding the truth" from some and "revealing it" to others. Where is there room for universal desire to try to save all men? ("try" the important word)

    Next, you said:

    No Calvinist has yet been able to tell me why people are beseeched to believe and condemned for not believing as though they had a choice one way or the other.


    Again, you imply that men have no choice in the matter. All men have, and make, the choice to either reject Christ or receive Christ. As said earlier, your charge is a false dichotomy, because choice is not even an issue. Calvinists don't believe men have no choice, clearly they do. We simply believe (as per the Bible's clear teaching), that without God's work of grace, all men would consistently choose to reject God, because they are not "on the fence, at a neutral point", but rather, "hostile towards God" and "spiritually dead" and cannot even lift a finger, while in the flesh (unregenerate), "to do anything pleasing to God" (Rom 8:7-8)

    All men would happily choose to reject God all the way hell, if it weren't for God's intervening grace to save some.

    Steve, I know you don't believe that conditional election gives men grounds whereby he can boast, but I challenge that position. What makes men to differ in your view? Man A is in heaven, man B is in hell, what makes them to differ? What makes man A differ from man B? You cannot consistently say "God's grace", because in your view, God's grace was given to all equally, therefore the difference must be in the persons themselves.

    Why did man A believe? Was he smarter, more spiritual, more moral, more religious, more inclined towards God? If so, he had some innate quality that man B either lacked or refused to improve upon. How does this not give man at least some of the credit for his own salvation?

    I submit that the only answer, ever, to the question, "What makes man A differ from man B", is "Grace". Grace alone.

    Finally, I cannot help but wonder how in your view, babies, or even mentally ill people, or deaf and blind people, can ever be saved? They are not capable of making the all-important "decision", for they are not even given the chance to hear the gospel at all! How about the fact that billions of people live and die without ever hearing the gospel at all.

    Is God upset for all eternity because His plans were frustrated, and that person He desired to save so badly, He just could not, becuase of the "luck of the draw" based on where he was born geographically in the world? God cannot and willnot intervene and take control to get the gospel message to the person, and then actually ordain that the person willingly receives it and is saved? How does your view of God's Sovereignty answer this question?

    How, in your view, can they possibly be saved? Only election and free, Sovereign Grace, grants them any hope.

    Finally, I want to take this to a personal level. Steve, do you, or have you ever, prayed for God to save your lost loved ones? I imagine you have, because that is something all Christians would or should do.

    The question is, why are you praying? What exactly are you asking God to do? If God has done all He can do, and will not intervene or infringe upon human will, but leaves it totally up to them to make the decision, why are you praying? What are you asking God to do? You are certainly not asking Him to "save the person", because in your view, He must not intervene and make the choice for the man. You certainly are not asking God to change the man's heart, because in your view, faith precedes regeneration. So I ask you, what are you asking God to do, when you pray "Lord, please save my lost friends and family!"

    Why do you pray "God, thank you for my salvation, thank you for saving me!" Why are you thanking God? You should be thanking yourself, because it was ultimately your doing that makes you differ from the man who is lost and hellbound. This is why Charles Spurgeon, a Calvinist, wrote "The Arminian Prayer". I will paste it here:

    You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

    "Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."


    I submit that you pray the way you do, and thank God for salvation, and ask God to save your friends, because deep down, you agree with me. On the surface, you reject Sovereign Free grace, but deep down, you know it's true. Deep down, every Christian knows that unless God works and changes the hearts of men, every single person would reject the gospel.

    Thanks again for your time. I hope you found me respectful. I hope you understand that I'm passionate about this subject hehe, and that is the reason for my assertiveness.

    Steve, God bless.
  • Also, Joe, I just realized that a lot of what I allude to is better developed in my post, The jealousy of the Jews and the fullness of the Gentiles. Please check it out and see what you think (as if I didn't give you enough to read in my last comment!).
  • Hi Joe! Sorry it took so long to respond. Website issues, work, family, etc. :-D

    I could find little to no basis for disagreement with anything you said in your first few chapters -- uh, I mean paragraphs. ;-) Well stated, I'd say.

    Furthermore, both Israel as God’s chosen ones in the OT, as well as the NT “chosen ones” (the elect) are said to be chosen freely and unconditionally with no mention of their works or their earning it. Israel was certainly not chosen by God out of all the nations of the earth because of her foreseen obedience to God - for they are sited several times in both the OT and NT to constantly be rebellious idolaters. God simply tells them that He chose them because He loved them, period. His love is not earned, or else love is not love. His love for Israel was unconditional, he loved them simply on the basis of loving them, not because they did anything to earn it.


    Even this section starts off on the right track: my contention throughout the three posts of this series (did you read the other two?) is that this specific sort of unmerited election was specifically a part of the outworking of salvation history - a history which is complete - and in fact relates more to participation in covenant life than to salvation in a personal sense (or else "all Israel will be saved" includes every Jew, Ahab and Jezebel included). Individuals, while obviously participating in election, are not the target of election: historically significant groups such as Israel and the early Church were the targets. The first century Church was in an historically significant era (Hebrews especially recognizes this), and just as the acts of the Apostles were peculiar to that generation, so was the election Paul was talking about. God's purpose in election as described in Romans 9.11 and chapter 11, which was not broad so as to cover the whole race, is complete, for the reasons I argued in this series. There was no special reason for God to favor them.

    I have to comment on your contention that "His love is not earned, or else love is not love." Hear, hear! But similarly (and this is key to understanding my position), child prodigies don't "earn" their way into recognition; they are simply born in a way that predisposes them to do well. I can offer food to five hungry people, but only those who wish to respond will receive what I have to give them. What cause is there for them to boast in doing so? Any boasting about a predisposition or propensity toward accepting God is recognized as baseless even for us "Wesleyan" types.

    See, I think that this not being able to boast bit is taken wrongly by Calvinists, who tend to see any positive human response as worthy of being proud of and hence as an offense against the sovereignty of God. But this breaks down all over the place. For instance, Calvinists like John Piper are left having to make the case that "love" doesn't really mean "love", but "self-interest" on the part of God; Piper says that the love of God is offered in such a way that will bring Him the most glory. Catch that? God's love is not wholly groundless -- there is something worth boasting about in Piper's scheme: "Well fancy that: I'm one of those that brings the most glory to God! Awesome!" Even Paul said that he boasted in his weakness; but if God's policy is "no boasting", Paul was wrong for even this. Because God is sovereign, He is authorized to decide what kind of relation to have with humanity: the testimony of Scripture, on the whole, shows that He prefers voluntary patronage ("bond-servants") to robotic servitude. He wants us to want Him, and part of such a thing is a possibility for disappointment. God is no less sovereign for putting Himself in a position in which His love may be spurned; He is in fact more sovereign for His wisdom in creating a universe that serves His purposes even given the tendency of men to spurn Him.

    The Bible describes fallen, unregenerate men as “haters of God”, “lovers of darkness”, “hostile towards God”, “never seeking God”, “finding Him foolish”, “unwilling”, and “unable”.

    The book of 1st John makes it clear that love is the result of the new birth, not the cause of it. Thus, we only love God because of His work of Grace in our hearts to make us born again, spiritually resurrect us (Eph 2, 1 Pet 1:3, 1 Jn 4:7)

    “We love him because He first loved us”. I submit that the word “because” in this verse is not in the realm of “motive”, but rather, in the realm of results.

    That God takes the initiative is in no wise disputed. And yes, "because" here is resultative of circumstance, neither strictly causative nor simply resultative of motive. For instance, I received a tract because a door-to-door evangelism team came to my door. It was not because of any merit I had that they came to my door, as they were simply canvassing the neighborhood. I had the opportunities to not answer the door, to open it but not take a tract, to take a tract to make them feel better but immediately throw it in the trash can when they left, or to take it and read it. This whole thing about God not "wasting" His love on those who will not return it doesn't hold water: what in the world would we do with the Parable of the Wedding Feast (Mat 22.2-14), in which God is spurned by the cream and settles for the dregs? Couldn't He have just, I don't know, "foreknown" the original people invited ("given them a tract", in a sense)?

    I'm simply at a loss to discover why I should be angry at a hammer if I intentionally bludgeoned my own hand with it. Should I not be wrathful toward myself?

    Next, your charge that God’s unconditional election is arbitrary is a false dichotomy. Arbitrary means “for no reason”, but Paul explicitly says that God’s love is the reason we were predestined.

    But this begs the question of why God salvifically loves certain people and not others. If there is no intrinsic reason to choose George over Adolph, the choice is intrinsically arbitrary; I do not deny that it is not entirely arbitrary, as there may be extrinsic reasons (i.e. advantages to selecting this person or that).

    The only ultimate answer to the question “Why are we saved” is “Because of God’s free love and grace” not “because of man’s will”, because Paul explicitly says that God’s mercy “does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy” Rom 9:16.

    Here again you seem to be missing the main thrust of the whole "Election and adoption" series.

    He said with His own lips “Of all that the Father has given me, I will lose nothing ” John 6, and “I will give eternal life to all those you have given me” John 17, and “I lay down my life for my sheep, and give them eternal life..my Father gave them to me” John 10.

    These verses read Calvinistic to someone with Calvinist glasses on. But I read them and respond, amen, for why would God give Jesus people who don't believe? Should we not read these verses as saying, "Don't worry, believers, I've got you in my hands; nothing shall separate you from the love of God"?

    Thus, you are wrong to try to squeeze fatalism into the picture of reformed soteriology. God accomplishes His goals through His ordained means, and that, I submit to you, is the only reason at all to evangelize. Paul certainly had this attitude when he said “I endure all things for the elect’s sake, so that they may be saved” (2 Ti 2:10)

    You keep attacking fatalism as though this is not a Reformed position. You may not be a fatalist, but fatalists are definitely a significant constituency. You can't really discount that fatalist Calvinists (such as most supralapsarians) are numerous, vocal, and have an authentic Reformed pedigree.

    This results in our not having to water down the gospel, file off the rough edges, or make it more palatable to the human nature in an effort to “get as many responses as possible” from them.

    But this position, caricaturized here, seems to have been Paul's position. There is no need at all for contextualization or any other means of persuasion seen in Paul's words and actions if your position is correct. Paul needn't have bothered with the Mars Hill thing, or with becoming all things to all men. No, I just can't see the Reformed, "Take it or leave it" anywhere in Scripture except Jesus' charge that went specifically to the Apostles concerning their particular mission to the Jews (Mat 10.5,6,14), a practice that was extended to foreign Jews later by Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13.51).

    How many people do you think are going straight to hell who thought they were saved on the sole basis of responding to an altar call or repeating the sinner’s prayer after someone else? They thought they were eternally secure because they “made their decision” and “did their part”. Do you see how this mindset of soteriology can produce dire consequences? In our day, decisionism has replaced God’s grace of regeneration and faith in Christ. Because of this mindset, people put faith in faith instead of faith in Christ. Ask a man who’s been a professing Christian for 50 years and he will tell you “50 years ago I made my decision”

    This is dreadfully confusing. If only the "right" people are already primed and just waiting to be brought into God's elect, in what possible way does it matter how the elect are converted, or even what kind of gospel presentation was rejected by the damned who God had already decided would reject Him anyway? You write this paragraph directly after discouraging the use of compelling language on the grounds that God has already decided who's going to believe; surely it would fall within His notice how they would be evangelized well before He decides who believes. I suppose you'll say I'm talking about fatalism, that God's decision is only about who believes and not about every decision they make, that there is need for discipleship and that we are responsible for availing ourselves of it and making it available to others, but what good is electing someone who is a total screw up because he was evangelized the wrong way? If He only elects those who bring will Him the most glory, what's the point of changing the situation God ordained for those people?

    Lastly, and sorry for the length, but there is a vital part of my post that you did not respond to, when I said that “The Bible clearly teaches that without God’s work of grace, all men would choose to reject God”

    Without the option to choose, one cannot properly refer to one's allotment as a "choice". Scripture also shows God pleading with people to repent -- not the action of someone who has made that "choice" for them.

    Are you of the persuasion that men are at a neutral point, sitting on the fence between loving God and hating God, and need to hurry up and make up their mind before it’s too late?

    All men start off predisposed to self-indulgence and self-interest. They can only be free if Christ sets them free. He sets free all but certain vessels of wrath for the special purpose I mentioned in my main posts (not just the one above).

    This is the very essence of grace! God helps those who cannot help themselves!

    And likewise burns with anger at those who cannot help themselves! What's the opposite of grace? ;)

    Regarding John 3.16:
    The first Greek word is “so”. “So” is Greek word #3779
    ...
    In other words, the word “so” in the Greek means “in such a way” or “in this manner”.
    ...
    John did not intend for John 3:16 to be understood this way: “God soooooo love the world”. He meant it to be read this way: “God loved the word in this way: He gave His only begotten son” or “This is how God showed his love to the world: he gave His only son”.

    Not at all disputed until your second paraphrase. That's utterly different from the Greek phrase: "the world" is the object of the verb "love", which means just "love" and not "make love visible". God loved the world in this way. There's no clever way around this.

    Thus, according to John 3:16, the PURPOSE for Christ’s coming to earth was not “to save everyone”, but rather, to save “whoever believes” or “all the believers” or “the believing ones” or “everyone who is believing”. This not only proves particular redemption, but it disproves universal love and any sort of “attempt” or “possibility” salvation. (Particular redemption holds that Christ died for believers only)

    This is absolutely the opposite of what the first phrase in v. 16 and the last in v. 17 make explicit. Essential is the word "world," kosmos. John throughout the Fourth Gospel uses this word in a specialized sense, and it means precisely humanity in its unbelieving state ("he came into the world, and the world knew him not"). God loved them in this way: by hating them and favoring some of them. Does this honestly make any sense?

    In John 3:16’s case, that phrase is “all the”. So John 3:16 literally reads “all the believing”. The best way to say “all the believing” in English is “whosoever believes” or “whoever believes”.

    Of course. Anyone believing shall not perish; anyone who does not believe perishes. The major factor missing from your interpretation but staring you in the face is the function of "belief": it's an odd man out. Jesus draws the parallel to Moses in the wilderness; Moses told people to look, and everyone who did was saved and those who didn't weren't saved. Not those who were predestined, or those who were chosen beforehand - the determining factor is explicitly stated to be acceptance of the aid offered. No Calvinist has yet been able to tell me why people are besought to believe and condemned for not believing as though they had a choice one way or the other. If belief is utterly incidental to unconditional election (i.e., it's just the way God decided people should get in the door), there's no reason to demand belief; the admonition should be, "Be one of the elect!" It's like someone asking you what they should fix you for dinner, and you responding, "Follow the instruction on the box of frozen pizza," when you really mean, "The frozen pizza." Under your reading, John 3.16 could have been much more to the point: God loved everybody [the Greek is crystal clear] in such a way that He sacrificed His only Son to the effect that those who He wanted to save could be saved. So His love was showered upon everyone in such a way that the elect might be saved (which, for whatever reason, happens to be faith); He denies the other people He loves the chance to believe. This is simply incredible.

    In conclusion, John 3:16 teaches that Christ’s purpose for coming to the world was to save “believers”, not “every single individual”, and that is in perfect accord with reformed theology.

    This was his purpose, but God's motivation in sending him was love for "the world". Limited atonement is simply a fancy trick for making the rest of the scheme work.

    And every believer will certainly be saved!

    Well, we can agree on this, at least!
  • joseff
    I apologize, I meant to comment on John 3:16, but forgot (the letter was already long enough! Lol)

    There is no need to do any "twisting" of John 3:16 in the reformed viewpoint. This is because there's several mistakes that are made in a casual, traditional reading of this verse with no attention given to the Greek context.

    The first Greek word is "so". "So" is Greek word #3779

    For example, in Acts 14:1, it says "They so spake that many believed.." In other words, the word "so" in the Greek means "in such a way" or "in this manner".

    It does not imply intensity. A teenage girl might say "I love my boyfriend sooooo much", but that is not how John uses the word "so" in John 3:16 (nor Luke in Acts 14:1 for that matter)

    John did not intend for John 3:16 to be understood this way: "God soooooo love the world". He meant it to be read this way: "God loved the word in this way: He gave His only begotten son" or "This is how God showed his love to the world: he gave His only son".

    Do you follow?

    The second word that's important is "That", which is "hinah", and it means "purpose". The section in question is ".....that whoever believes will not perish"

    Thus, according to John 3:16, the PURPOSE for Christ's coming to earth was not "to save everyone", but rather, to save "whoever believes" or "all the believers" or "the believing ones" or "everyone who is believing". This not only proves particular redemption, but it disproves universal love and any sort of "attempt" or "possibility" salvation. (Particular redemption holds that Christ died for believers only)

    Thirdly, there is no Greek word for "whosoever". That's so important I'll say it again: There's no such thing as the word "whosoever" in the Greek language.

    Why is that important? Because in English, "whosoever" is used to imply all sorts of things that the author never intended to imply, John 3:16 is one such case.

    Rather, the word "whosoever" is actually a translation of several words strung together in the Greek language. In John 3:16's case, that phrase is "all the". So John 3:16 literally reads "all the believing". The best way to say "all the believing" in English is "whosoever believes" or "whoever believes".

    The reason this causes problems is because people assume that the English word "whosoever" somehow immediately and automatically destroys any idea of particularity, or election or predestination. In a debate with people, you can show them a plethora of bible passages that support predestination, and they will respond with John 3:16 as if one Bible verse erases another Bible verse, as if it's the be-all-end-all Bible verse.

    In conclusion, John 3:16 teaches that Christ's purpose for coming to the world was to save "believers", not "every single individual", and that is in perfect accord with reformed theology.

    And every believer will certainly be saved!
  • joseff
    Thank you brother for your well thought out reply. I appreciate the chance to dialog with other believers about this vital issue. I also appreciate the opportunity to sharpen our iron on eachother :)

    Originally Posted By Steve
    There is no doubt whatsoever that the "elect" was the audience of 1 and 2 Peter. The problem, as usual, is defining the "elect".


    I agree. According to my Greek concordance, the word "elect" in the Hebrew means "chosen one" (Old Test.)
    In the Greek (NT), the same thrust is seen, it means "favorite, chosen".

    Also interesting is that the word "church" is "ekklesia" which means "the called out ones". Thus even the word "church" was referring to this same group of "the chosen" in the NT.

    Further, this group of people are referred to some 16 times in the NT (do a search on your electronic Bible) and it never refers to anyone but the above mentioned "believers" or "chosen ones" or Christians in general. Even individuals are referred to in this way (The "elect lady" and her "elect sister" 1 Jn 1:1,13)

    It has been said that in order to understand the Church in the NT, you must understand Israel in the OT. The NT writers (especially Paul and the author of Hebrews) constantly mirror Israel's function with the NT church's function. Israel, at the time, was God's "elect" or chosen ones.

    The priest of Israel would make atonement for, not the whole world, but the 12 tribes of Israel. In like manner, Hebrews and John 17 explain the mirror in that Christ is the High Priest for the NT "chosen ones", when Christ says "I do not make intercession for the world, but for those you have given me..for they are yours...I will give eternal life to all those you have given me...it is for their sakes I sanctify myself" (John 17) It is for these that Christ is said to have died (Eph 5:25, Rom 8:30-33, John 11:51-52, Rev 5:9)

    In short, every time "the elect" is mentioned in NT, it is referring to believers in Christ, as they are the new "chosen ones". The Book of Revelation describes how God casts off his harlot wife (Israel) for her spiritual adultery and embraces a new bride, the bride of Christ, His new chosen ones, the elect. They are called, and chosen, and faithful (Rev 17:4) who are purchased by Christ's blood (Rev 5:9)

    The sign for being an OT "elect", an Israelite, was physical circumsion, but the sign for the NT is spiritual circumcision of the heart (having the Holy Spirit indwelling you). This happens as a result of the new birth, being born again, which John 3 states is a work of God which blows anywhere it wants as the wind does. Faith in Christ is the result of, and not the cause of the new birth (see below), thus, there is absolutely nothing Christians can take credit for in their salvation, because ultimately, even their faith in Christ is a gift from God (This is not your own doing, but the gift of God Eph 2:8-9) This is in accordance with Eph 2 and 1 Cor 1 which states that there is absolutely no room for boasting in salvation. (In your viewpoint, there is room, because what makes those in heaven differ from those in hell is not God's grace, because that was given to all, therefore it depends on what each individual person did or did not do with that grace)

    Furthermore, both Israel as God's chosen ones in the OT, as well as the NT "chosen ones" (the elect) are said to be chosen freely and unconditionally with no mention of their works or their earning it. Israel was certainly not chosen by God out of all the nations of the earth because of her foreseen obedience to God - for they are sited several times in both the OT and NT to constantly be rebellious idolaters. God simply tells them that He chose them because He loved them, period. His love is not earned, or else love is not love. His love for Israel was unconditional, he loved them simply on the basis of loving them, not because they did anything to earn it.

    In like manner, the NT "chosen ones" are said to be chosen in the exact same way (Rom 9, Eph 1:4-11, 2 Thess 2:13, John 6, John 10, John 17, etc). Paul says we were chosen in order to become holy and blameless, not because we were so. Acts 13:48 says that those ordained to eternal life believe, not vice versa. Christ says that men believe because they are His sheep, not in order to become sheep (John 6:26). 1 John 5:1 and John 1:12-13 state that men believe in Christ because of their new birth, not in order to be born again.

    There is no difference between how God revealed himself to and saved those in the OT as He does the NT. It is always free and unconditional, based on His mercy that He extends or withholds as He pleases. (And He is just in doing so because all are guilty and hellbound because of sin)

    As for your question "Do people love God because they were chosen?" I would have to answer yes.

    The Bible describes fallen, unregenerate men as "haters of God", "lovers of darkness", "hostile towards God", "never seeking God", "finding Him foolish", "unwilling", and "unable".

    The book of 1st John makes it clear that love is the result of the new birth, not the cause of it. Thus, we only love God because of His work of Grace in our hearts to make us born again, spiritually resurrect us (Eph 2, 1 Pet 1:3, 1 Jn 4:7)

    "We love him because He first loved us". I submit that the word "because" in this verse is not in the realm of "motive", but rather, in the realm of results.

    For example, "Why did you hit your brother?" - "Because he hit me first!" That's a motive, and that is not what John is doing here. Rather, the reason we love God is because He first loved us, quickened us, made us born again. Salvation starts with God - He is the initiator, and He always finishes what He starts.

    Next, your charge that God's unconditional election is arbitrary is a false dichotomy. Arbitrary means "for no reason", but Paul explicitly says that God's love is the reason we were predestined.

    "In love he predestined us..." Eph 1:4-5
    "Whom He foreknew, He predestined..."

    The only ultimate answer to the question "Why are we saved" is "Because of God's free love and grace" not "because of man's will", because Paul explicitly says that God's mercy "does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy" Rom 9:16.

    Next, I see nothing in 2nd Peter, or anywhere in the entire Bible where "possibilities" are spoken of regarding salvation. There is no such thing as God "trying to save as many as possible". God is God and He does all that He pleases and no plan of His can be thwarted. Mat 1:21 states that Christ will save His people from their sins. It does not say "He will try...". Furthermore, Christ is said to have "obtained eternal redemption" (Hebrews) for every single person that He died for on the cross. He said with His own lips "Of all that the Father has given me, I will lose nothing " John 6, and "I will give eternal life to all those you have given me" John 17, and "I lay down my life for my sheep, and give them eternal life..my Father gave them to me" John 10.

    I see nothing in 2 Pet 3:9 about God delaying the end to save as many as possible, it clearly says that God is patient toward [a group], not wanting any to perish, but wanting all of them to repent. We could argue who the [group] is, but grammatically and contextually it is clear that Peter is referring to God's people to whom He is patient towards, not every single individual from among the larger group of humanity.

    Next, you mentioned that "God's elect are His no matter what", and I would like to comment on this. It is true that God will save His elect no matter what, because nothing can thwart God's plan, and not a single soul that the Father gave to the Son will be lost, but your statement seems to imply that the way God does this is through fatalism, when it clearly is not.

    God is the God of the ends as well as the means to those ends. In other words, the ordained method of saving His people is through the preaching of the gospel. We preach the gospel, and God's elect answer (willingly) in faith and repentance. Christ said "My sheep hear my voice, and follow me".

    Thus, you are wrong to try to squeeze fatalism into the picture of reformed soteriology. God accomplishes His goals through His ordained means, and that, I submit to you, is the only reason at all to evangelize. Paul certainly had this attitude when he said "I endure all things for the elect's sake, so that they may be saved" (2 Ti 2:10)

    In the non-Calvinistic viewpoint, we evangelize in order to try to talk someone into making some decision. In other words, we are throwing ourselves (and God) at their mercy, rather than confidently preaching the gospel with the assurance that God will "give increase" to where we have "planted" as He sees fit. This results in our not having to water down the gospel, file off the rough edges, or make it more palatable to the human nature in an effort to "get as many responses as possible" from them.

    How many people do you think are going straight to hell who thought they were saved on the sole basis of responding to an altar call or repeating the sinner's prayer after someone else? They thought they were eternally secure because they "made their decision" and "did their part". Do you see how this mindset of soteriology can produce dire consequences? In our day, decisionism has replaced God's grace of regeneration and faith in Christ. Because of this mindset, people put faith in faith instead of faith in Christ. Ask a man who's been a professing Christian for 50 years and he will tell you "50 years ago I made my decision"

    Anyways, I do mean to appeal to pity there.

    Lastly, and sorry for the length, but there is a vital part of my post that you did not respond to, when I said that "The Bible clearly teaches that without God's work of grace, all men would choose to reject God"

    Are you of the persuasion that men are at a neutral point, sitting on the fence between loving God and hating God, and need to hurry up and make up their mind before it's too late? If so, I ask you to provide a Biblical basis for this, because I have already given several passages that say that men are unable and unwilling to come to Christ because of their nature which is in bondage to the corruption of sin. They can only be free if Christ sets them free. Christ Himself said "No man is able to come to me unless it is given to him of my Father"

    I repeat, men will not, indeed cannot, savingly believe in Christ unless God works the miracle of regeneration, making them born again, because prior to that they are "spiritually dead" and blind, and hostile towards God (Rom 8:7-8) and when He does this, as 1 Jn 5:1 and John 1:12-13 state, man will certainly willingly, and freely choose Christ. This is the very essence of grace! God helps those who cannot help themselves!

    Thank you again for your time. God bless. (There is far too much to talk about, and it's difficult on the internet isn't it? Lol)
  • Joe,

    Many thanks for taking the time to reply, and for doing so graciously.

    This can turn into a book after awhile, and it's a weakness of my blog's theme that the comments section is so narrow so that one has to scroll down a mile to read it all. Here is my best attempt at addressing your concerns without writing a book.

    2 Pet 3:9 is referring to God’s elect. Both the individual chapter as well as both books (1st and 2nd peter) are specifically addressed “to God’s elect” or “to those who have obtained the same faith as we have” or “beloved” (all of that means Christians, God’s elect, believers, etc) See the intro to each book as well as 2nd Peter chapter 3.
    ...
    God is waiting for them to repent which is precisely why the second coming is “delayed”, as He is not willing that any of them to perish. Peter mentions that God is not slow concerning his promise to return, but that He is “patient towards us”. (the word “us” being the important word)


    There is no doubt whatsoever that the "elect" was the audience of 1 and 2 Peter. The problem, as usual, is defining the "elect". By context and some common sense, and independent of a prefitted doctrine (Calvinist election), we may observe something interesting about the elect in 2 Pet 3. The elect are assumed by Peter to be susceptible to missing out on salvation: Peter defends Jesus' delay as a way of God's making sure as many people are saved as possible. The obvious implication is that God's delay serves the gracious purpose of not cutting off some people, which necessarily would include some elect people by any definition of that term. In order to view this from your standpoint, Peter was waxing rhetorical and so his rationale for God's delay was not strictly true (that can't really be why God's delaying: the elect are His no matter what). Moreover, the whole Reformed dogma of the inability of man to countermand God's will is seriously challenged by this. Shouldn't Calvinist Peter have said, "God is delaying because He wants to. What's it to you, punk?"

    And yes, of course it's about the Second Coming - that is when the NT writers envisioned their salvation as occurring. But it's funny that Peter's having to defend Jesus waiting thirty-some years, while we're expected to believe Jesus ended up waiting for two millennia. It happened, and within a decade of Peter's writing.

    Next, 1 Ti 2:4. Again, if you’d apply the GH method of interpretation rather than plucking it from context like a fortune cookie, the true meaning of the verse is made clear. Start reading from verse 1. Paul is urging Christians to pray for higher-ups and those in authority, even though they are ungodly and persecute the church, in order that they may leave us alone to lead quiet, peaceful, Christian lives, or that God would convert them and save them.
    ...
    Paul has told us to pray for “all people”and he defines what he means by giving us “types”: “kings, and those in authority”. Therefore when Paul continues to use the phrase “all men” or “all people” (varying translations), he is talking about all types of people, not every single individual that ever walked the face of earth. We are to pray for all types of people, even kings that persecute us, and likewise, God will save all people, meaning, all sorts of people.

    In other words, nobody, based on wealth, or royalty, or social status, is excluded from God’s saving grace. God will save “all people”, even the kings and those in authority who persecute the current Christians.

    I agree that Paul is referring to all types of people. But then again, he could have said so if that were what he primarily meant: believe me, there are plenty of ways of communicating this in Greek. Let me say that I don't think either side is conclusive on this point from this passage. You say that God wanted to save every "sort"; I say that God wanted to save every individual, not excluding those "sorts" that were perscuting them. Either side is wholly defensible from the text itself. We each read our own presuppositions into the text; mine just happens to take the unqualified expression "ransom for all men" in verse 6 on its face.

    Finally, you have assumed that “foreknowledge” means “foresight” or “omniscience”, rather than the more personal “fore-knowledge”.

    Very good discussion of this. I agree that "know" is probably not in the purely intellectual sense. I'll step away from my stance that "foreknow" means to "know actions beforehand" per se. But I think it's certainly implied: the main question is not whether God "fore-chose", but whom He chose, viz. upon what basis they were chosen. What I stand opposed to is the idea argued by so many Reformed that God's decision was primarily and fundamentally arbitrary: not on the basis of merit of any kind. That is clearly demonstrable to be false by one of the Scriptures you mentioned: 1 Cor. 8.3: "But if anyone loves God, he is known by God," to the effect that, "It doesn't matter what you know, but Who you love" (see the context). The Calvinist would have been much more comfortable if Paul had used the opposite formula: "But if anyone is known by God, he loves God," to the effect that, "It doesn't matter what you know, but Who knows you." That is not the case; rather, we have a clear example of God knowing people on the basis of something they offer (of their own volition, or else Paul's counsel is useless).

    To provide a disclaimer, Calvinism does not reject that men have a choice in the matter. It is certainly not fatalism. All men have the choice to choose or accept God. However, the Bible is clear that without God’s work of grace, all men would choose to reject Him. (note that they “choose” to do this).

    That being said, it is likewise necessarily true that God’s predestination of people is not based on what he foresaw they would or wouldn’t do (because all would reject God if given the choice, (see Psa 53, Rom 3:11, John 3:19, Rom 8:7-8) , but rather, “foreknowledge” is God’s active movement to graciously intervene and set his love and redemptive mercy upon people rather than letting all justly perish.

    So, for you (I recognize broad variation among Calvinists), are there people who love God but not loved back? Or do people only love God when God has chosen them (contra 1 Cor 3.8)?

    In conclusion, what you have described above is the doctrine of Arminianism known as “conditional election”, which means that God elected/predestined people based on their actions. (hence, conditional) This would make man his own Saviour, put God in an obligatory position, make God the great “reactor” to human actions, rather than the Sovereign of the universe who ordains whatsoever comes to pass, make God’s will submissive to human will, and strip the phrase “Saved by Grace” of all its meaning.

    Thanks for the time you spent in writing this, but here again, I must disagree. To be sure, we love Him because He first loved us, but it doesn't follow that all He loves love Him back (how else can John 3.16-17 be twisted?). God's sovereignty is so remarkable as to encompass the full, unfettered breadth of man's choice. Moreover, that God at times reacts is a tautology apparent from enumerable Scriptures. To hold that man's choice strips God of power in soteriology surely implies the same outside of soteriology; my view, more properly Molinism than Arminianism, suggests that God undertakes election only when He decides and not because He is bound to by the Calvinists' definition of "sovereignty". For His sovereign will to be enacted within a relatively autonomous creation takes a decidedly more sovereign being than one who must micromanage everything.

    I compare it to the ID movement vs theistic evolution. With the former, God has a plan and sets to enact it by pushing each appropriate button so as to avoid deviation from the plan. The latter maintains that God set the whole thing up to run the way it was supposed to from the start; any variation is accounted for within the system itself. That's how I view God's sovereignty.
  • joseff
    Greetings. Interesting article. I thoroughly enjoy the study of predestination etc. I have personally been persuaded of the reformed or Calvinistic theological position on soteriology for quite some time.

    That being said, I wanted to offer some input. I did a google search for 'hermeneutics' and your website came up. I found your article about Bible interpretation very well informing and very true. Specifically, you quoted someone as saying "The Bible is 66 books, not 31,000 fortune cookies". This is absolutely true and I love the statement.

    I say all of that to say this: In your explanation of Romans 9, you quote 2nd Peter 3:9 and 1 Tim 2:4. I believe you have "fortune cookied" these verses rather than applying the grammatical-historical method of interpretation to them.

    2 Pet 3:9 is referring to God's elect. Both the individual chapter as well as both books (1st and 2nd peter) are specifically addressed "to God's elect" or "to those who have obtained the same faith as we have" or "beloved" (all of that means Christians, God's elect, believers, etc) See the intro to each book as well as 2nd Peter chapter 3.

    Secondly, the passage is not about salvation, but the 2nd coming of Christ. If you would start reading from verse 1, through verse 9 (rather than just verse 9 by itself), you would see that Peter is distinguishing between scoffers whom God will destroy, and the elect whom God is patiently waiting for. God is waiting for them to repent which is precisely why the second coming is "delayed", as He is not willing that any of them to perish. Peter mentions that God is not slow concerning his promise to return, but that He is "patient towards us". (the word "us" being the important word)

    Next, 1 Ti 2:4. Again, if you'd apply the GH method of interpretation rather than plucking it from context like a fortune cookie, the true meaning of the verse is made clear. Start reading from verse 1. Paul is urging Christians to pray for higher-ups and those in authority, even though they are ungodly and persecute the church, in order that they may leave us alone to lead quiet, peaceful, Christian lives, or that God would convert them and save them.

    In the Greek the word "pas" means "all", and it has one of two definitions (see a concordance). The first definition is "all, everyone", and the second is "collectively, some of all sorts". Which definition to use is based on the context. If, in the context, different "types" of examples are given, the word "all" is obviously the second definition.

    Paul has told us to pray for "all people"and he defines what he means by giving us "types": "kings, and those in authority". Therefore when Paul continues to use the phrase "all men" or "all people" (varying translations), he is talking about all types of people, not every single individual that ever walked the face of earth. We are to pray for all types of people, even kings that persecute us, and likewise, God will save all people, meaning, all sorts of people.

    In other words, nobody, based on wealth, or royalty, or social status, is excluded from God's saving grace. God will save "all people", even the kings and those in authority who persecute the current Christians.

    Finally, you have assumed that "foreknowledge" means "foresight" or "omniscience", rather than the more personal "fore-knowledge". Let me explain.

    For God to "know" someone is more than just a passive, intellectual knowledge about their actions. The verse in question, Rom 8:28, does not say "what God foresaw", it says "Whom He foreknew". God "knew" people, not actions of the people. Individual humans are the object of "foreknown". It is people that are "foreknown", not actions of the people.

    Here are some verses where God "knows" people:

    Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

    Certainly Christ "knows", intellectually, all men, even the ones that He does not cast into hell in Matthew 7, but what Christ is saying is exactly what it sounds like: He does not know the reprobate in a relational, personal sense.

    Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
    Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Here, Christ equates The Father's knowledge of the Son with the knowledge the Son has of His Sheep/His elect. Again, both the Father and the Son literally and intellectually "know" every single human being, but Christ "knows" his sheep in a special, unique way, in the same way the Father knows the Son.

    1Co 8:3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

    God knows everyone in an intellectual sense, but God only "knows", in a personal, intimate sense, those that love Him.

    2Ti 2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."

    Amos 3:2 You only have I known among all the nations of the earth...

    Again, God certainly knows all nations of the earth, but He expresses that Israel is the only nation that He "knows" in any significant way.

    Thus, "foreknow" is exactly what it sounds like. "Fore" means "before", and "know" means to know or love in a personal relationship. We are "known" by God from before the world began, hence "fore-known". It is for this reason God can say to us:

    Jer 31:3 .....Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    To provide a disclaimer, Calvinism does not reject that men have a choice in the matter. It is certainly not fatalism. All men have the choice to choose or accept God. However, the Bible is clear that without God's work of grace, all men would choose to reject Him. (note that they "choose" to do this).

    That being said, it is likewise necessarily true that God's predestination of people is not based on what he foresaw they would or wouldn't do (because all would reject God if given the choice, (see Psa 53, Rom 3:11, John 3:19, Rom 8:7-8) , but rather, "foreknowledge" is God's active movement to graciously intervene and set his love and redemptive mercy upon people rather than letting all justly perish.

    In conclusion, what you have described above is the doctrine of Arminianism known as "conditional election", which means that God elected/predestined people based on their actions. (hence, conditional) This would make man his own Saviour, put God in an obligatory position, make God the great "reactor" to human actions, rather than the Sovereign of the universe who ordains whatsoever comes to pass, make God's will submissive to human will, and strip the phrase "Saved by Grace" of all its meaning.

    Thank you for your time.

    Joe
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